WandaVision (2021) Discussion

Truly one of the greatest epics of our time. I've never seen a more accurate portrayal of grief than in this show. I was mostly a casual MCU fan since I always preferred the Fantastic Four and the X-Men but this show has cemented my love for the MCU with all the love and exploration of Wanda Maximoff, one of my favorite characters. To see her in her prime and geared for one of the premiere roles of Phase 4 and onward is such a blessing for Scarlet Witch fans who never thought we'd see her get all this love and attention from casual fans.

So pleased that this show blew The Mandalorian out of the water and has topped it in ratings and everyone has been talking about it on social media. I don't think I've ever seen a show be adopted by pop culture as fast as this one. Will definitely be purchasing all the merch they have planned in April.

I've written a few metas already on WandaVision. Note that I have since watched the relevant backstory films I hadn't seen.

Cross-posted from various ramblings on Tumblr and Discord.

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As someone who had only seen a single Marvel movie (The Avengers) and only watched Jessica Jones season 1 for David Tennant (while hating nearly every other character in it), which had none of these characters, I only watched WandaVision precisely because it dared to break the mold and be even remotely ambitious instead of doing the same old CGI cartoon fest over and over. And somewhat because of what Marvel has done to the film industry, television has completely and utterly overtaken film as where emotional, dramatic storytelling now happens.

And okay, I happen to have had a major TVLand addiction growing up and binged a ton of the shows referenced in WandaVision long ago (yep, those very same '50s-'80s sitcoms). I couldn't pass up the retro. Love at first sight. Combine that with what promised to be a tragic, human/non-human romance. Sold. I knew little else about the characters.

For a long time, I've seen female fans (in particular) comment on how part of the reason they write fanfiction for Marvel is that they have to read between the lines just to add the implied dramatic content of the relationship focus variety that never quite gets developed in canon (certainly not up to the standard of what a fic reader expects). I saw a few comments that pretty much described WandaVision as exactly that: a fix-it fanfic before tragic reality invaded Pleasantville. Wanda's whole Hex was essentially a glorified fix-it fanfic.

For this reason alone, I can only hope the success of WandaVision gets them to create a season 2 that is dedicated solely to Wanda trying to put her family (Vision) back together that does the tragic romance justice in a way that giving them side parts in other people's movies just isn't going to cut it.

I feel like Vision's ultimate resurrection or even Wanda's struggle with her grief is better left to her own headline story, whether be it film or television. Television is the only medium that is going to allow the actors to really sink their teeth into this sort of star-crossed, tragic drama and not have it relegated to a minor side-character plot. Either give Wanda and Vision their own movie (hopefully, with heightened focus on character development as a lesson learned from television) or wait to integrate the mind and body of Vision in another season that gives both of them center stage with room to develop it.

Them having their twins for real might also be worth a season 2 in a way that probably wouldn't even work on film, as showing such a feminine pregnancy storyline would be a helluva departure for a Marvel movie that goes from action set piece to action set piece.

I wouldn't even hate it if Wanda's sitcom comfort zone made a few more appearances, even if it is merely the occasional domestic fantasy or dream/nightmare, so there is a way to not completely divorce a potential season 2 from season 1's "gimmick". It could be merely as simple as her pointedly doing something Sam/Jeannie-esque with her magic. Cooking with floating kitchen items would be an easy nod.

Probably not what Marvel is thinking of doing, but as a non-Marvel fan, WandaVision has a real opportunity to pull in new viewers with very different tastes that have so far managed to give the films a wide berth. It would do so much better as a show.

Go the route of giving these characters their own headlined projects and Marvel could have a real juggernaut of a 'ship, as well. My impression was that WandaVision got a lot of fans talking about the characters and their relationship in a way that the previous films and comics had not; some even making comments they had barely paid attention to the characters before the show.

IMO, the mere character descriptions sound like some of the most interesting and fleshed-out characters Marvel has got right now with real opportunity for real dramatic depth. And that's putting aside that Scarlet Witch is one of the most powerful characters on the entire Marvel roster. Making a whole television season about a character going through the stages of grief and about a woman who just wants the family she lost back (a woman who desperately wants a husband and children, no less) was very different territory for Marvel. Human/non-human, in addition to having the level of doom that makes tragedies very, very memorable.

There's tropey drama potential there that hasn't been mined with the non-human who becomes more and more "human" (it's the stuff of fairy tales and sci-fi both). Hayward or someone like him could easily be used as a character who doesn't see Vision as equal to humans, for example. Delve into the sort of existential questions about artificial life achieving consciousness no less feeling than a human's that stories like Data on Star Trek, Blade Runner and Bicentennial Man pose. That species difference without the magic of sitcoms could be mined for a gorgeously dramatic plotline. What it means to be human explored through the non-human--one of my favorite tropes.

And of course, it's the stuff of fairy tales--most notably Pinocchio (the once-inanimate learning to and desiring to become real by proving himself worthy and because it fulfills the greatest wish of the person who loves them most), combined with the interspecies romance elements of The Little Mermaid (tragic ending or not--see also the desperate acts taken to achieve this cosmically-denied togetherness, only for such a tragic ending to come of it in the original work).

Given that the MCU movies just lost a bunch of their A-listers, they need something big like this. Marvel needs philosophical and character-driven meat on its meager dramatic bones. Here are two actors who could carry something more ambitious and pick up an entirely different audience. Marvel could get an even bigger female audience with these two, IMO. And it wouldn't be cheap girl power pandering either (I say this as a girl). These characters are legit with incredibly warm, likable, endearing performances behind them. This chemistry works 100%.

I think White Vision having an existential crisis where he's questioning what he is if he has all the memories of a being who clearly can feel every human emotion (the idea that we are our memories), but at the same time knowing that he's only artificial life, would be an interesting lead-up to Vision being fully restored with his full consciousness in addition to the added memories of what he experienced inside the Hex.

A restored Vision would have to reconcile what Wanda did in her grief over him and her family. It's also a glimpse at the life Wanda wants with him, which included something that isn't biologically possible, though it likely is through her own abilities of creation. There's also the idea of balance that he's the one who might hold her back from the brink of going down any further dark paths as a figure of ordered stability for her, while she is key in the chaos of his becoming more "human". The to-be parenthood story is obviously hanging over them.

The situation with Hayward intending for White Vision to remain a mere machine that can be manipulated and used as a weapon in a way that an independently-thinking Vision can't be is also a path to go down. As I said, there's a potential storyline about prejudice regarding artificial intelligence, even if it has all the emotional capability of humans.

And on top of that, Vision is in a relationship with a human, even if it's one who could potentially be the key to restoring his consciousness through her own link with the original Mind Stone. It also furthers Wanda's role as a mother and creator if she can give him back his life in this way. While the heroic Avengers might not question them being "an unusual couple", who says everyone else would be so kind?

I really think he needs to be brought back. Wanda desperately needs him for her story to continue.

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Which is why I believe that Wanda having part of the Mind Stone inside of her will eventually restore White Vision to being the full Vision, with the addition of the memories inside the Hex.

It's the obvious route to take the character. She's the key to restoring him.

But, by the same token, he will also have to look at what Wanda did during her grief, as well as have a glimpse into what she wants for her life. It's not without consequence. There's also the idea that they compliment each other with him bringing order and stability to her life, while she brings the chaos of human emotion to his. That's why I wouldn't be so quick to think he's done or that White Vision is all that's left. While he might have the complete memories (ones intensely focused on being in love) confusing what was intended to be an unquestioning machine rebuilt as a weapon, he doesn't have the same depth of feeling and sentient consciousness, and the means to feel all of that--the soul, if you will.

They also made it far too clear that part of the Mind Stone that was destroyed still lives on in Wanda herself. Wanda's abilities of creation (Hayward even describes it in terms of her having the ability to resurrect her dead lover) and immaculate motherhood (despite having a partner who is biologically inhuman and incompatible) were broadcast very strongly at the end.

Hayward became an ass the second he talked about Vision's body. That moment completely set up that he was setting up Wanda to try to help him out with making Vision work (S.W.O.R.D was failing to do so) and had absolutely zero respect for Vision as a sentient being to the point of wanting him as nothing more than a mindless weapon. I can't believe viewers weren't flinching hard at the words he was using in episode 8. That he was a villain was obvious right then and there.

Vision is akin to characters like Data in Star Trek, Andrew in Bicentennial Man and Rachael in Blade Runner, which is why when a character expresses themselves in this way, the audience usually reads it as prejudice against a fully sentient and intelligent life form capable of human emotion. Note that Blade Runner was even referenced on the cinema marquee (Tannhäuser Gate is a reference to Roy Batty's "tears in rain" monologue). It's a film all about artificial intelligence who are desperate for more life being hunted down and exterminated. Data and Andrew both have stories in which they augment themselves to become more human and capable of experiencing things as a human would. In the case of Andrew, it's a robot who wishes to experience all aspects of humanity, including love and mortal death.

Hayward using wording such as bringing back online, pointedly showing Wanda the robotics stripped apart and considering the worth in dollar amounts was in extreme contrast to Wanda talking about burying the body and treating him as a person who had sentient life and feelings.

Hayward completed his turn when it was revealed that he had also completely lied to everyone by telling them that Wanda had stolen Vision when he actually had his own nefarious plans hatching with White Vision. The thing with Billy and Tommy was well after Hayward's deception and lies had been revealed.

Interesting to note that Wanda was originally going to have a cut line about how the deaths of the other Avengers (especially Tony Stark) were widely mourned, while Vision's death was not treated equally and barely acknowledged beyond her. It fed into her isolation on top of having nobody to go home to, as well as the public reaction focusing on a person whom her feelings were complicated towards to say the least.

It's another reason the Stark missile in her childhood living room was given focus.

One can also read the toaster advert as indicative of how people view her relationship with Vision, given that it was based on a meme where Vision is mocked as a glorified toaster, not unlike Hayward's dehumanizing wording that was trying to get a rise out of her so she'd snap and fix what S.W.O.R.D couldn't figure out until the Hex.

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Some recent metas have shown a major bias that misinterpret Wanda completely. Wanda clearly wants marriage and children. She was in a relationship with an artificial intelligence who is now dead. By the relationship's very nature (which is referenced in the nosy comments of being asked why they don't have children yet), they are biologically incompatible. He's not human. Do you understand why this desperation to follow the housewife emancipation narrative thus doesn't make sense?

The show isn't making fun of housewives who want marriage, children and a normal life or telling them to give up wanting those things because academia has decided for women that a traditional family life with a nurturer and a provider is unfulfilling. It’s also not making fun of historical time periods and their mindsets in a postmodern way (not the same criticism that Pleasantville made), but actually is looking back on those sitcoms and their tropes with a lot of love. The show creators actually had a sit-down with Dick van Dyke because they have affection for these shows and it showed in how accurate they got everything. At no point do they make fun of the eras or sitcoms of old, but rather reserve most of their poking fun (lovingly) at the characters themselves instead. Elizabeth Olsen herself is a sibling of sitcom royalty (the Olsen twins of Full House fame). Wanda herself has a lot of affection for those escapist shows that got her through hard times and she yearns for having a lot of the things depicted in them. Criticism of past media for not being currently relevant enough (this idea that the ‘50s sitcom world or even music of the era is creepy all on its own even before it unravels--sorry, but a lot of people still respect I Love Lucy, et al.) or of women who might actually yearn to imagine themselves into such a “normal” or “traditional” life with things they’ve always desired (yet are explicitly denied to them) or one free of tragic endings (yet at the same time acknowledging that we do suffer loss we have to accept) was completely the opposite of WandaVision's message.

Wanda has been denied every single one of those things for her entire life and she's in mourning for the life she thinks she'll now never have because everyone she's ever loved is now dead. She desperately wants to have children, a husband and family, to the point where she still hasn't given up on creating them for real. And do note that she has to create them magically, whether Vision comes back or not.

Before she even lost either of these Visions or her imaginary children, she had already lost her own parents, home and twin brother. She's been a young woman without family for years and Vision was the one being she had left (she didn't have many Avengers she was close to and one she spent her entire life blaming for killing her parents), as unusual a couple as they were, until he was taken from her, too.

Hayward pushes her buttons constantly by using language that dehumanizes Vision (phrases like "back online", rather than "back to life") as he's being stripped for parts while she's using language describing a loved one she wants to give a human burial to. She has been judged for her choice in partner, just as the act of White Vision being stripped of Vision's memories that were wrapped up in falling in love instead of strict programming without distraction (Vision injured War Machine in an act of friendly fire because he was distracted by Wanda) is deemed by Hayward to be an improvement. He sees Vision as nothing more than a very expensive weapon to be used. He even puts a price tag on him. The relationship between Wanda and Vision with Vision being capable of having feelings or sentience at all is thus treated as a programming mistake.

The denial of Vision’s personhood also mirrors Wanda’s own for years. Hydra and Ultron used her as a weapon, then the Avengers used her as a weapon until they spent more time treating her as a live nuke that needed to be guarded and imprisoned. It’s not much different than Wanda being told that Vision doesn’t even belong to her and even his own desires are irrelevant (he thus doesn’t even own himself); he’s mere property of an organization.

The last thing Vision wanted to be was a weapon and it shows in how he doesn't defeat White Vision with a battle, but rather an existential philosophical debate.

Consider this when you realize that Vision was ready to flee the Avengers completely with Wanda to go live in a suburban lot in New Jersey when they were pulled into the mess with Thanos. Their attachment was to each other during those stolen moments for two years, rather than to some greater duty. It was Vision who bought that empty lot and was talking about the two of them running away from everything and pretending to be a normal couple. It's the life that Vision was talking about in Infinity War that was taken from Wanda because he was attacked right after that scene and later died in that movie.

Interesting thing to note about Infinity War is that Vision was using a human form at the beginning of the film even when there was nobody around (even alone in their hotel room and even when the Mind Stone is bothering him--he doesn't change form when she's connecting with the stone in his forehead either). Throughout WandaVision, Wanda is constantly asking Vision to remain in his true form with her, such as when meeting his children for the first time. It actually contradicts the real Vision that we saw at the start of Infinity War who seemed to be wanting to be seen as a man instead, even in only Wanda's presence alone.

I think WandaVision has resonated because it broke the mold in such a far-out way that nobody was expecting and it's proof that you can have depth to these popcorn flicks and not everything has to fit the superhero formula. I never grew up watching any of the classic sitcoms (Modern Family is the only sitcom the show references that I've regularly watched. I guess I could argue that I've seen Full House as well but I was never a fan of that tbh) but I'm definitely interested in seeing The Dick Van Dyke Show, Bewitched, and I Love Lucy. I've also seen some great articles, typically from Reylos but also other female-oriented fandoms, about how women have to rely on fanfiction to meet their needs as mainstream books, movies, and TV shows rarely grant them what they're looking for.

I know Wanda's journey will be captured in the movies now, particularly her quest to bring back her kids, but I would like to see her family return in the TV medium because like you said, TV is able to go places that movies can't between lack of time as well as audience expectations.

I know most casual fans did not pay much attention to Wanda and Vision before this show and even in the movies, they were very much supporting characters. As a fan of Wanda from the comics (since she's basically the Jean Grey of the Avengers) I always kept my eye on her but I know not everyone else did. The comics have also treated Wanda brutally, using her as a plot device and scapegoat, to the point that she was basically thrust into writer's limbo for most of the 2000s and almost a full decade. To this day, she hasn't fully recovered from character assassination and some parts of the Marvel fandom (mainly the toxic X-Men fandom) still regularly talks about how she needs to pay for her crimes and burn her at the stake (and I mean that last part literally). I'm not surprised to hear some similar comments about Wanda's behavior in WandaVision and how Agent Hayward was the only good guy, how Wanda needs to be put on trial and pay for her crimes, the typical nonsense that was directed at Ben in TROS as well. It goes without saying that it's always a very particular breed of the fandom that is obsessed with justice like this in fiction and considers indulging in grief and emotions to be the greatest evil one could commit and make one absolutely irredeemable; I'll give you a hint, they have a Y chromosome. It amazes me that Hayward was still considered a good guy even after he fired on two innocent children and even Monica, his colleague and the daughter of a woman he worked with and respected. Without her powers, she'd have been dead but Hayward kept firing at her without knowing about her abilities, yet this is the man some people are willing to defend? Because he talks practically about data and weapons and doesn't get "clouded by feelings?" Certain characters have always been great at weeding out the antis and Reylo was one example for SW and Wanda and Hayward are two examples here.

Marvel has done some cheap girl power stuff in the past which was really just done for the fanfare of it all and to get people talking, not because there was any actual substance to it. A lot of the female characters were very one-dimensional, known just for being physically capable and snarky or witty in the midst of action. Wanda was the first female character to break that mold in the movies so it's not surprising that the writers didn't really know what to do with her so she was pretty much sidelined most of the time. I think they are getting better with more dynamic and diverse female characters who aren't Black Widow 2.0. I do recommend Agent Carter though (it's an ABC TV show on Disney+ that was a spin-off from the first Captain America). That's a show which didn't get much fanfare but it also did a great job showing a female character who has to grieve a lost life and find a way to move on in a world that isn't receptive to her capabilities just because she's a woman (it's set in the 1940s right after WWII). Marvel gave her a happy ending with Captain America so I really do believe they will similarly give Wanda and Vision a happy ending with their kids somewhere done the line, especially now that general audiences are truly invested in their story.

You bringing up how Vision would receive discrimination for not being a human is something that did come up in the comics a lot. Wanda was a mutant there so she faced discrimination for not being fully human and Vision definitely did. The Avengers would get hate mail from their "fans" because of Wanda and Vision's relationship when they went public. In the comics, they also move to a neighborhood to live a suburban life and they face a lot of blowback from the neighbors who aren't exactly approving. Wanda's own brother Pietro (who never dies in the comics) was disgusted by his sister for marrying a non-human and even some of her teammates weren't particularly receptive and felt Wanda was essentially marrying the equivalent of a toaster. The toaster part also comes from a high-profile writer/author who is the one who basically is responsible for Wanda's downfall in the comics and why she's been regarded as a crazy woman with too much power she can't control. He called Vision a toaster and broke them up by removing Vision's feelings and memories (he created white Vision in the comics which is where the MCU took inspiration from), and also retconned Wanda's children as never having existed at all but the mere magical constructs of a deluded woman. This writer set the standard for Wanda and all her stories for decades to come but at least WandaVision is finally correcting those sins.

White Vision disappearing at the end, and never even seeking out Wanda, was odd imo. I'm curious where he went but perhaps he doesn't feel he's ready to go home yet. He may also have his memories back but not the emotional feelings attached to those memories. I do believe that Wanda could restore him especially if she contains those emotions which she used to create the Hex Vision. I'm surprised she didn't try and combine the two but I guess she never even was told that White Vision regained his memories.

I had no idea there was a line where Wanda mourned over the fact that nobody even mentioned Vision's death. I wish they kept that line in the final cut.

Also good catch that Vision in Infinity War presents himself as human even when he's alone, whereas WandaVision has Wanda want Vision to display his true form for his kids. I know in the comics, Vision was very particular about how he may not have a human body but as a synthezoid, he's not really a robot and still has a human mind. He was in fact even disparaging to other characters who he felt were robots, so not like him and thus lacked the basic humanity he believed himself to possess.

Continued Facebook ramblings (WandaVision group)...

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Agatha practically has the same motive (and Salem backstory) as the Sanderson sisters from Hocus Pocus in regards to power and life forever, except she doesn't suck the lives out of little children. She just chokes them and kills their dog. Seriously, the motive was simply to suck Wanda dry of her powers and have them for herself.

A lot of superheroes are antiheroes and tragic heroes. Doesn't make her any less of a protagonist. Also, Wanda has been a tragic antihero since her turn in Age of Ultron, lest we forget. Even Vision was partially the creation of a villain. Those are actually some of the most profound, complex, relatable and heroic characters precisely because we see their struggles. It makes them climbing back up after getting knocked down over and over so much more impressive.

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And Paul Bettany is just there for guys now, is he? Please. He's one of the most talented actors of the whole lot (also one of the best looking when he's allowed to be), even when painted red. Paul Bettany in period costume? Seriously underrated!

Vision is also potentially one of the most profound characters if the writers let him be. He's the philosophical and existential powerhouse. Imagine if Marvel took a page out of Blade Runner, Bicentennial Man or Star Trek's Data.

Wanda is also one of the very few Marvel female characters who actually has a character and storyline deeper than a generic-action-girl-with-occasional-witty-line cipher. Wanda is the anti-Captain Marvel, and frankly, anti-Black Widow. Being a tragic antihero separates her. Hell, being a woman who just wants to be a wife and mother (a suburban housewife having pregnancy plotlines!) instead of just a role that wouldn't have to change a damn thing if it were to change gender and having "feisty", "strong" females who can beat up men as nothing more than Hollywood performing an insincere back-patting exercise is pretty unusual in the superhero film genre.

Compare Wanda's catharsis of grief to the embarrassing, tone-deaf horror of Thor's grief being played as a Big Lebowski joke in Endgame. That whole film got grief so wrong and WandaVision got it so right because it wasn't written for the lowest-common denominator who makes fun of "feelings".

Wanda is a genuine female character who was allowed to experience a uniquely female storyline that Marvel films don't usually pause long enough to tell. She benefited from television still allowing actors to act and more intelligent dramatic storytelling, however.

WandaVision is clearly a show that is going to get girls to watch who NEVER would have watched anything MCU previously or didn't like what they'd seen (I speak for myself). Tragic human/non-human love story + a trip through the history of television was very different territory than action set piece, CGI porn and, oh, another action set piece.

WandaVision probably bored dudebros into a coma by the first episode who just wanted to watch action scenes and shed those viewers fast when they found themselves having to watch a TVLand/Nick@Nite mashup with practically no action until the final episode (and even that was full of sad stuff). Those viewers probably didn't make it that far.

WandaVision is a show that will be quoted at funerals (thank you, Vision).

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What she didn't know (she was actually accurate!) was how she did what she did. That reveal is in episode 8 where her grief explodes and creates the Hex. While she's aware it isn't real, she actually doesn't understand how she did it. This is expanded on later when she keeps telling Agatha how she doesn't cast spells and isn't a trained witch. She does magic with a mere thought and doesn't necessarily know how she's doing it. The whole point of her going off to study the Darkhold was to understand what she is and how to actually control her powers.

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(In regards to an '80s action figure with He-Man proportions.)

I got to say, the films performed a miracle on the appearance of Vision. The color scheme change to blue and silver against the deepened red was the best thing that ever happened to him. Mexican luchador is right (I mean, it is Mexican flag colors) and the fact that WandaVision used the original costume because of its embarrassment factor said it all. The colors used to be like Christmas barfed. The shade of red also used to be obnoxious even by the standards of retro printing.

I think a lot of the failure of Wanda and Vision to move beyond being Marvel C-listers and not living up to their potential popularity, despite having a storyline designed for audiences that eat up forbidden, tragic romances and the existentialist philosophical depth of inhumans who are the most human of all (WandaVision notably fixed a lot of what was done wrong), had a lot to do with their visual design failures and then getting sidelined so dang much in other characters' films, despite actually driving a lot of the plot and being a major emotional linchpin.

Wanda being on a completely different power level explains why she got sidelined so much (she got robbed of her catharsis against Thanos, IMO, to serve Captain Marvel, despite the latter having zero emotional connection and utter apathy to anything happening in Endgame--which is why that moment is a total dud and feels offensive on Wanda's behalf), but it was pretty ridiculous. Vision basically got reduced to babysitter and then McGuffin until WandaVision.

As usual, human proportions are so much more attractive than comic book proportions. It's like how the character of Clark Kent is wonderful (I'm partial to Tom Welling, who absolutely was cast with female WB viewers in mind--note how he's more Clark than Supes), but the dated comic depictions (costuming is a relic of 1938 boxers, wrestlers and circus strongmen!) are just unattractive, not empowering. And in regards to women, some artists still need remedial anatomy lessons. I will say that comics have gotten better dramatically in regards to coloring and detail. Tie-in comics benefit from being forced to look like actors and the artists can't stray too far from the source material.

Even though tall, very slim Paul Bettany (give the beautiful man more face time!) is padded a bit (though I wish his human form was allowed to just be him and it would still make sense because he is a shapeshifter), the proportions are in the human zone and instantly more pleasing than the fugly '80s He-Man/Mr. Universe/WWF proportions. Wanda's hair (some artists did her so dirty--she also just looks psychotic in some panels) and Vision both had a really bad patch in the '80s. Guys with those proportions are NOT lookers. In fact, they're sacrificing their looks to look like that. The percentage of females who like the look is minuscule.

The films (thank goodness) are limited by demanding genuinely-talented actors with traditional leading man and matinee idol looks who need to please female audiences, not just boys and comic artists with questionable tastes. Though I think even most of them prefer the updated makeovers done by film costumers with input from actors that don't want to look stupid. It's still not good that even male actors literally dehydrate themselves for these roles (Bettany and Tom Hiddleston are amongst the very few spared this), but the comics themselves would, IMO, increase their readership if they followed suit.

The retro Scarlet Witch and Vision were in desperate need of a visual makeover. Vision even more so. A billion times improved as of the MCU! Elizabeth Olsen's input on the final Scarlet Witch costume is exactly what was needed. Kudos to them actually listening to the person who has to wear it, too.

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I take it you haven't seen season 4 of Mork & Mindy? If you think this is a bizarre baby storyline in a sitcom, you haven't seen anything! LMAO. Hint: Mork lays an egg. Orkans also age in reverse, so things got so strange the show jumped the shark fast. Previously, Mork had also referred to himself as a test tube baby, which was a controversial topic in the '70s. Given that the show had Mork sitting on an egg knitting baby clothes, the stork humor is not unprecedented. It also brings to mind The Partridge Family opening with the Partridges all hatching from their eggs.

Note that "jump the shark" as a term comes from the Fonz literally jumping a shark on water skis.

And of course, one of the very early baby storylines in a sitcom was I Love Lucy and they couldn't even say the word "pregnant" ("Lucy is Enceinte" is an episode title using the French word instead). Ricky is in native costume from his show during the birth scene, so it's definitely surreal. Note that they actually had only one bed until the pregnancy, which most viewers do not realize. The two beds stereotype of '50s sitcoms is not true of I Love Lucy season 1! There's a scene where they're handcuffed and it starts getting a bit feely because it's just one bed.

The two beds were only introduced after Lucille Ball was visibly pregnant with Desi Arnaz, Jr., which became Little Ricky's introduction to the show. Lucille had also been pregnant with Lucie Arnaz during the unaired pilot, though had given birth by the time the show filmed for real. There was a definite content censorship shift from season 1 to later, because Desi's shows were also a lot more spirited and wild at the start (see Babalú where even his hair is coming undone--this was pre-Elvis and way more than I think modern viewers would expect in a show from 1951).

I mean, even the famously wholesome Ozzie and Harriet had a rock'n'roll son--Ricky Nelson! He was the real deal, too. People actually bring them up as a putdown on how straight-laced '50s television was (ditto the fact that Ricky and Lucy did share a bed at first contrary to popular belief), but it's like they forget who their son was or the fact that Ozzie Nelson was a major force behind his son's rock'n'roll career.

Elizabeth Montgomery and Barbara Eden were also really pregnant. Elizabeth's pregnancy became Tabitha Stevens, while Barbara's pregnancy was covered in the first season with a longer version of her pink hat veil and her belly dancer pants were higher, though later on her bellybutton was filled with putty (otherwise her outfit would've been censored). Lucille and Elizabeth definitely looked pregnant (you can tell the difference between a real pregnant woman and a fake bump), while Barbara hid it really well.

The most suggestive Jeannie ever got was definitely the scene towards the end of the show where Tony and Jeannie are making out in Jeannie's bottle (a bit beyond normal sitcom level, too), which is not a far cry from Wanda and Vision's suggestive bit of going under the covers. Mork & Mindy also got into a bit of honeymoon talk, complete with a giant chicken costume. There is absolutely precedent for what might seem like a modern intrusion, but it's a type of humor that did actually exist in the shows it is riffing.

Then again, Robin Williams actually had to have a censor brought in who spoke Yiddish because he kept going off-color in foreign languages. LOL. Censors had their hands full with him. You can see him doing cheerleading FU arms in the background of one scene and there was a character named Mr. Wanker, which was a problem in the UK (American censors didn't catch it).

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(Re: a poster who basically stated that a mother can't be attached to a short magical pregnancy of that length or mourn losing children she didn't raise through every age. He got torched hard with the insinuation that adopted parents aren't really parents if their kid comes to them at, say, 10 years old. Further statements were made in regards to the children not being "real".)

Vision isn't a real human person (even the real one), but he's a sentient being. He's often described as a human trapped in an android/synthezoid body and wants to be seen as equal.

Unlike robots, he is completely able to feel every emotion a human can. The Mind Stone grants him the equivalent of a soul that differentiates him from true robots like Ultron or even JARVIS. Vision believes himself to have a soul. This is why he speaks of not completely understanding the Mind Stone or its extraterrestrial origins, but wanting to in order to control it, rather than it controlling him.

An interesting observation can be made about the beginning of Infinity War is that Vision is using his humanoid form in what is suggested as a post-coital scene (Vision refers to how they should have never left their bed) with them completely alone in a hotel room and he doesn't even change form when the Mind Stone is bothering him. This is in direct contradiction to Wanda asking Vision to remain in his true form, especially when meeting his babies. The real Vision seems to want to be seen as a man in such an intimate setting even with Wanda, who doesn't even judge him for what he is and treats him completely as a sentient, intelligent life form--a man even when he doesn't look like one.

Wanda is clearly reacting to Hayward's dehumanizing speech that keeps using terms that talk about him as something to bring back online in front of what to Wanda is a dissected corpse that she wants to give a human burial to, not a robot full of wires.

These kids were in fact sentient and thought independently of her. This Vision was provably seen acting independently of the Hex's influence and actively disagreeing with and standing up to Wanda. He outright says she can't control him.

Also note that ANY kids Wanda might have with or without Vision would by necessity be magical constructs, given their inherent incompatibility. There's no such thing as her kids being traditional biological creations. They're magic either way. Any future pregnancy outside of the Hex will be just as "immaculate" (note the history of such births in many mythologies).

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(Re: a very unobservant poster who denied that Wanda got pregnant without even having a sex life or in deep denial.)

Vision and Wanda have one of the most suggested couple sex lives in the entire PG-rated MCU. Infinity War and WandaVision have some of the most obvious post-coital and suggested fade-to-black scenes in the franchise.

Remember that Vision is a shapeshifter and in the case of the Infinity War scene, he was in human form when they were completely alone in their Edinburgh hotel room and then had a line referring to how they should've stayed in bed. Vision also has a visible reaction to Wanda's '50s lingerie. We are told he is 100% capable of such a reaction.

Vision isn't sexless, regardless of his synthezoid body being Ken doll, and the fact that Wanda's desire to be a mother would by necessity need her magic of spontaneous creation to be possible due to biological incompatibility.

Question: Have you ever seen Blade Runner, Bicentennial Man or Star Trek's Data? It's that kind of android story. The "more human than human" kind.

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Clint couldn't even bother mentioning Vision while yapping about losing Natasha, whom he wasn't even in a relationship with, as if he were in one. It felt like it was a crumb to Clintasha 'shippers who ignore he's married with a family, which is a bit glaring with Vision only being acknowledged by Wanda, while she was kindly also talking about Natasha as a friend, but not getting this in return. The only person grieving Vision was Wanda.

Wanda actually was going to have a deleted line while crashing S.W.O.R.D. where she outright stated that nobody ever mourned Vision while they were busy mourning Tony Stark (who, lest we forget, was implicated in the death of her parents), which pretty much sums up Wanda's relationship with all the current Avengers.

This is including or even especially Clint, who had a perfect opportunity to stop talking about himself (this is a guy who got his whole family back alive!) and start trying to help Wanda, whose loved ones are the ones who didn't come back after the snap. In fact, Tony Stark kind of killed another one of her loved ones again when he decided to save his daughter who may have been born anyway instead of going back to before Vision was killed instead, which would have saved *everyone* from even the five year loss on top of one of their team whose life would save them all. Tony actually would be alive had he gone back before the snap and saved Vision instead. None of them ultimately acknowledged that Vision was equal to a human being or truly one of them. By not doing so, Wanda was further alienated.

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No, those characters are pretty much all genuine villains. Some have antivillain qualities (Inspector Javert is a more accurate example of a true antivillain--a lawman who is just doing his job hunting down an escaped convict and doesn't see in shades of gray), but they're real villains and completely treated by the narrative as unambiguous antagonists and black hats.

Wanda is a tragic antihero we are asked to empathize with. She's mirrored against several characters who have truly power-hungry, villainous motives and make statements and actions read as unforgivable, such as Hayward's dehumanization of Vision/shooting at children and Agatha killing a dog/seeking out witches to suck their power dry. She is never for a second treated as less than a protagonist. There's a huge difference. We are never invited to empathize with Thanos and we're not meant to. Not like how we're treated to experiencing Wanda's grief with her as empathetic protagonist.

Thanos set out to genocide half the universe and his justification was resources. He's not an antihero. When presented with evidence that it didn't create the Utopia he thought it would, he only solidified himself as a villain by refusing to accept it didn't work as intended with barren planets still barren and populated planets even less well off. When presented with incontrovertible evidence that his half-baked plan didn't even achieve his goal, he doubled down.

Wanda didn't even mean to create the Hex and her powers were out of control when she created it with an unintended thought! Wanda's mistakes tend to be unintended because her powers are tied to strong emotions and she's untaught and unaware of her own abilities. She also ended the Hex of her own volition because she understood it wasn't right and it was at great personal sacrifice. She actually lost more than she had before the Hex and yet she still accepted acceptance.

She's still closer to the tragic hero side of antihero. Many tragic heroes, Byronic heroes and antiheroes have full-blown villainous pasts that they're trying but sometimes failing to atone for and they tend to make a lot of mistakes and fall down repeatedly, only for the audience to cheer them getting back up again and persevering through their struggles. That's what an antihero is. It's not merely them thinking they're right. A great deal of these characters are actually very self-loathing and second-guessing of their own worth and helpfulness to society. Others are selfish, rude jerks who come through heroically in the end.

The characters are NOT all antiheroes. Having any justification whatsoever or thinking you're doing a good thing that the narrative treats as unambiguously evil isn't enough to differentiate an antihero from a villain (might edge them towards antivillain at best). Some antiheroes do things they think is the right thing (or they're stuck between a rock and a hard place with nothing but horrible choices) that then goes horribly wrong absolutely does happen, but they tend to regret it in retrospect. Wanda is not an antivillain either.

Wanda and Ultron/Thanos literally acted in complete opposite ways, even beyond the framings of protagonist and antagonist (not the same as hero and villain). Wanda was ultimately selfless to the point of personal sacrifice of the thing she wanted most. Thanos became more selfish and completed his slide to unambiguous villainy when presented with a win that was actually a failure to his own goals, but could be reversed. Ultron was mirrored by a genuine servant of humanity in Vision that framed him as the true inhuman and wrong. Vision was Pinocchio, not Ultron. Vision and Hayward are likewise mirrored with a "Who is the monster and who is the man?" dilemma (see Quasimodo and Frollo).

Don't know if you're interested, but you seem to be an incredibly knowledgeable Scarlet Vision 'shipper going back to the comics era. There's now a Discord specifically for the 'ship, rather than merely just WandaVision. All those groups have seemingly transformed into general Marvel and every show/film but WandaVision now. I think you'd get along with this group if you're still invested.

https://discord.gg/yU4FGN2vFF

Good catch that Agatha has the same MO as the Sanderson sisters. I wonder if they were in part inspiration for Agatha's character since the Agatha Harkness from the comics was never a villain.


Wanda was the first MCU heroine to break the mold of generic action girl that we've seen since Black Widow, Gamora, Nebula, etc. I think it's part of the reason she had such a small role in those movies because Marvel didn't know what to do with a character like Wanda. Interestingly enough, since you brought up Wanda vs Captain Marvel, there's even a scene in the comics where when Wanda talks about wanting to have children, Carol basically shames her and says she won't get much value from having a family and would be better off serving as a hero for the world.

The dudebros did indeed rant and rave about how boring the first few episodes were, some even dropping the show after the first episode for not having enough action for them. They couldn't understand the sitcom format. Imo no real loss losing "fans" like that. And the rest of the dudebros who did watch the whole show were upset that some malor savior (the MCU's Luke Skywalker whoever that is) didn't show up at the end to save the day. Thank goodness this show didn't make the mistake that Mando S2 did with an unnecessary cameo.

I hope we get more about the mythology of the Scarlet Witch in Doctor Strange 2. I'd love to see Agatha return as well to mentor Wanda since it would be an interesting twist of Doctor Strange refuses to help teach Wanda in the ways of her powers whereas Agatha will be willing to do so.

That's interesting that I Love Lucy actually did have one bed before the pregnancy. I was always under the impression it was forbidden under the Hayes Code to show a couple in bed together but I guess it was fine until the pregnancy implicated what was going on in that bed.

Wow, that poster who said a mother who didn't carry her children to term wouldn't have an emotional connection is so tone-deaf. I wonder if it was a male poster, or even worse, a female poster culturally inclined to think this way. Glad the poster was told off.

It still amazes me that some people defend Hayward and think he was the real hero of this show whereas Wanda needs to stand trial for her actions. It's all the rhetoric antis use for Ben Soo. Hayward pointedly didn't refer to Vision as human and wouldn't even give him a proper burial, instead dissecting him for parts to weaponize him. It reminded me very much of how minorities are dehumanized and their bodies taken without familial consent by the government or doctors for "research," such as Henrietta Lacks who must be the most infamous example in history.

Speaking of an "immaculate" conception, there was a storyline in the 70s Avengers comics about the Celestial Madonna, the woman who would give birth to the savior of the universe. Wanda was one of three contendors for that role, which is interesting since at that point she was in love with Vision (they didn't get married until the end of the storyline) so any children she might have had would most likely have been his as well, so even at this point, the implication was that Wanda would give birth to a powerful and divine child before she's even pondered the idea about using magic to make her wishes come true.

The MCU is surprisingly tame on sex, some of Tony Stark's antics aside and even that has been cleaned up for family audiences after the first movie. With Wanda and Vision, it's just pointed enough for adult audience members to understand.

Clint is one of the worst MCU characters in my eyes. I'm still annoyed that Pietro died for him, when his only character development was having a "secret family." And then Endgame tries to make him more "interesting" as a character but having him kill a bunch of criminals to vent about his lost family, nevermind that everyone lost someone but nobody else became a vigilante or mindless killer like Clint did. I'm not a huge fan of Natasha but the fact that the "fallen woman" who is considered a "monster" for not being able to bear children has to die over Clint didn't set will with me. This was the perfect opportunity for Clint to pay for his actions after the snap, and let his sacrifice be what brings back his family even at the cost of him never being able to see them again. And Tony's hypocrisy also bothered me because there were countless lives lost or negatively impacted from the snap and the Avengers could have fixed all that by erasing it from existence had Tony not chosen his daughter over the rest of the world. His actions don't make much sense either because by returning to the original timeline, he can still make the decision to marry Pepper and have a child like he did before, thus bringing his daughter back, but rather than use common sense, he's decided he won't sacrifice on any lost moment and thus sacrifices the world. I've never been a fan of Tony as a character but his selfish streak isn't what I expected to win out at the end.

I couldn't help myself with the song selection here.



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