Responding to baseless criticism of Disney movies

As the topic title says, this thread is meant to discuss the unfair criticism our favorite Disney films and characters receive. I am not talking about actual issues like obvious racial stereotyping in, say, Peter Pan, but rather petty and baseless nitpicking of presumed plot holes or character arcs. I was inspired to start this topic after reading yet another complaint/meme about the curse/timeline issues in Beauty and the Beast and how they supposedly break the whole film, this time on Instagram. I posted what I responded to the original post below, but my response was pretty much ignored.

Beauty and the Beast
Complaint:
The Beast is about to turn 21 years old and has been cursed for 10. How are there paintings of him as an adult?

Response:
The prince is definitely older than 21. The narrator clearly says that the rose would bloom until the prince's 21st year, not that it would wilt until his 21st year. So technically, he could have been anywhere between 15-20 in the prologue, then the spell is cast, the rose blooms until he's 21, and then it starts wilting and wilts for an unspecified number of years. If the prince is, say, 25 for the majority of the film's duration, that also matches with what Lumiere says in "Be Our Guest" about rusting for 10 years.

Aladdin
Complaint:
The villain is darker than Aladdin and Jasmine, which promotes racism and colorism.

Response:
I don't even know how people came up with this one. Take a screenshot of any scene where Aladdin and Jafar are in the same shot, and you will see that Jafar's skin tone is lighter than Aladdin's, deathly pale even.

Feel free to add yours!

Mooky wrote:

The prince is definitely older than 21. The narrator clearly says that the rose would bloom until the prince's 21st year, not that it would wilt until his 21st year. So technically, he could have been anywhere between 15-20 in the prologue, then the spell is cast, the rose blooms until he's 21, and then it starts wilting and wilts for an unspecified number of years. If the prince is, say, 25 for the majority of the film's duration, that also matches with what Lumiere says in "Be Our Guest" about rusting for 10 years.

Oooh, I like your explanation a lot!!!! That makes total sense.

Over on the other forum, this weekend I was defending Snow White, Cinderella, & Aurora (not defending them to forum members, but we were discussing the idea of older vs. newer princesses). They all are brave and kind, with a sense of humor, and they are not just waiting around for their princes to come, despite popular criticism of them. A woman back then (whether in the fairy-tale century the film is set in, or in the earlier 20th Century) couldn't necessarily just run away. What would they do to support themselves? So sometimes all you could do was dream and hope and be a good person in the meantime.

Ooh, and the princesses/characters of Oh My Disney in Ralph Breaks the Internet are AVATARS! So when Cinderella breaks her heel- that's not our beloved Cinderella, that's just her Oh My Disney avatar.

I'm sure that more will come to me, but I must get ready for work!

I think I remember reading that the original intention of the BATB filmmakers was that the prince was supposed to be 21 by the end. Maybe it was in the original script. I know Howard Ashman said he envisioned the prologue as showing a child version of the Beast, like Eddie Muenster, which alarmed everyone else so the concept was scrapped (this was in either Waking Sleeping Beauty or the Howard documentary). However, that does seem to suggest that the Beast was cursed as a child.

I've also heard that in the time that BATB took place, it was customary to make portraits of children and age them up to resemble adults so the portrait showing him as a 21-year old would make sense that way even though it was created when he was still 11. The A Twisted Tale book series explains that the portrait was enchanted to reflect his true human self and it would age as he aged as the Beast. So the portrait originally showed him as a child when he was cursed as 11 but gradually it would age with him so it would show him as a 21-year old prince by the time we see it again. I know the prologue shows the Beast scratching the portrait with his claws and the portrait clearly showed him as 20 or 21, but I think it makes sense that he may not have actually attacked the portrait until right towards the end of the curse, when he was convinced he was running out of time and would never break it.

I agree with Mooky that the complaints in Aladdin about the protagonists being lighter than the villain are baseless.

I also agree with blackcauldron85 about the classic princesses and it's a shame there is so much ignorance about them everywhere. Oftentimes, I've found that Disney fans are the most vehemently opposed to the classics which I don't understand. Also 100% agree with disapproving of the DP portrayals in RBTI.

JeanGreyForever wrote:

I know Howard Ashman said he envisioned the prologue as showing a child version of the Beast, like Eddie Muenster, which alarmed everyone else so the concept was scrapped

That's right- I remember hearing that in one of the documentaries, too!

JeanGreyForever wrote:

Also 100% agree with disapproving of the DP portrayals in RBTI.

I actually like this movie and like the princess parts. But I keep in mind that it's the AVATARS, not our girls, you know? I just meant when people complain that the princesses are tarnished there, I wish everyone kept in mind that it's the Oh My Disney avatars, not actually the movie princesses. BUT I totally get the argument of, They're still the Disney Princesses, and Disney shouldn't change their character.

Is it ok if we do criticisms more along the line of like, moral judgments? Because I can't really think of any plot holes I can explain away right now.




She sleeps, you say? In a moving about a... sleeping beauty? What kind of madness-

But yeah, singing is great. She has a stunning voice touched by magic and I don't know why she wouldn't use it. All these critics' faves but Merida sing, so I'm not sure why this makes people tear at their hair. As for crying, this always irks me the most probably. It's yet another way women get shamed for showing any kind of emotion that is not 'prettily, approachably smiling'. Which of course would get them criticized as well for being too happy. You can't win. She had darn good reason to be miserable, too. If I had a happy cottagecore life in the woods away from city drama and indentured servitude and one day met the literal man of my dreams, only to have it harshly torn away when I'm told that Ackshully, you have to marry a stranger, pop out his kids and rule a country, sweaty!... I might have an uglier reaction than running off to cry in my bed. What is she supposed to do- skip with joy to find out her life is a lie and her parents didn't die? Punch the fairies and run for it? I truly am at a loss for a better choice.


Disney fans and critics alike evidently do not actually watch these movies. What Tia says, exactly, is: "My dream wouldn't be complete without you in it." Her dream is valid, but now that she's found a second dream to love and satisfy her, she wants it, too. Tiana, in a rare twist of the usual rom-com style, DOES get to have it both ways: keep her career and her romance. You don't get to see that much. She did not "need" Naveen to be complete. Did y'all miss everything her parents told her? Money and ambition are great, but nothing is better than love. It doesn't even need to be the romantic kind. Also, Tiana was shown to not be a socially healthy person. She overworked herself to the point of collapsing into bed, constantly blew off her friends, and forgot the valuable lesson the dad she loved so much taught her. Naveen helped to teach her that play is equally important to work (just as she taught him not to be lazy and entitled), that deserves a break, and that a loving sense of community can feed your soul as much as gumbo can.


One of the many, many hypocritical views held with this fandom. When Belle trusts and shows kindness to an ugly person, she's an empowering role model who is above shallowness. When Snow White does the exact same thing, she's a moron who deserves her fate. Snow saw a sick old lady and didn't care about or even notice her appearance. This is a trait we see earlier, when she's initially startled to see the dwarfs but comes to befriend and mother them all the same, because the fact that they look so different from her means nothing to Snow. She's just not a superficial person. Like Belle, like Jasmine, like every DP you love, she looks with the heart. It also 200% reeks of victim blaming. If a drunk girl trusts a guy when he says he wants to walk her out to her car and ends up violating her instead, is it her fault? No, of course. It's the violater's for being a bad person. I also think people miss something key about Snow a lot, the same thing they often miss about Cinderella. Snow has been deprived of love for who knows how long. She's a sweet little girl but her only family hated and abused her. When offered the chance to make her dream of finally getting the love and happiness she's been neglected of for so long comes true- she takes it (just like Ariel, Tiana, etc all do, by the way). She is not passive; she takes the chances she gets. Also, she's a 14 year old in the 17th century. Use some common sense and stop applying modern "stranger danger" rules to the movie.

Very well written, OnTheMoonAtLast!! Re: Snow-- exactly, she is a young girl who really was alone in the world, who maybe never even was taught about stranger danger. Part of her charm is that she is innocent and sweet.

Re: Tiana- Yeah, she earned her money, so she didn't need a man for assistance, but we just see the bond between Naveen and Tiana throughout the film...a character/person shouldn't be shamed for feeling what they feel (like what you said about Aurora!), so yes, she loved Naveen, and love is a human emotion. You can have your restaurant and have a husband... I mentioned it elsewhere, but if someone has ever been in a relationship, then I don't think it's fair that they judge the Disney characters for wanting a relationship...You can have that and have other aspects of your life, too. It's not like Tiana gave up her dream to be with Naveen. With or without a man, she was getting her restaurant!

The funny thing is Aurora only sleeps for one night...which is basically the exact amount of time the average person would sleep anyway. Snow White usually doesn't get these accusations of always sleeping but in the actual movie, she's asleep for several seasons.

You definitely can't win with critics since if Aurora put on a grin and bore it, she'd be accused of being fake and plasticky, but by crying and showing her emotions, she gets accused of being weak and spineless. In an old season of The Next Food Network Star, the exact same thing happened with a contestant. She was bullied by a chef and near the brink of tears but she told herself to hold it in and keep a smile on her face, which is the professional thing to do especially on TV. The male judges applauded her for that but ironically enough it was the female judges who complained that wasn't an authentic reaction and it's so fake that they can't stand her. After watching several seasons of this show with these judges, I know if the contestant had cried or exhibited any emotions (which she did later away from the judges), she'd have been criticized for that and how you can't do that on TV. As you pointed out, it's not just that Aurora is losing the love of her life. She's also now being told she has a royal burden and responsibilities and it's one thing to gaze longingly at a castle and wish you could live there, it's a whole other thing to actually live there as a ruler. Much like how Aladdin fantasizes about living in the palace and Jasmine quickly puts that idea down, stating how many rules and regulations you have to live by in a place like that.

You're also 100% right about how rare it is for a woman to have it all in mainstream Hollywood movies. I've seen only a few examples where you can have a lover/family but also power/a career. Rey is the best example since her "happy ending" involves her standing alone on a desert planet which is exactly how we met her. To be considered a strong and powerful Jedi, she's not allowed to love so she has to lose her soulmate and not grieve for him but instead look triumphant. Daisy Ridley even confirmed that there was more footage of her scene with Ben's death, when she says "no, no, no" as he dies but JJ didn't feel it was relevant because he didn't want us to view this moment as a tragedy because it means her "empowering" ending isn't so empowering after all. Even Wonder Woman ends up alone at the end of her two movies, although I'm holding out hope that in third and final film we'll get her reunited with Steve after all since Patty Jenkins has pointed out the double standards when it comes to female heroes in movies and how they're never allowed to save the day AND get the guy the way male heroes do.

A lot of people miss the context that Snow White is a 14 year old who has been used and abused for several years. She's been orphaned and has no one to love her or show her any affection or kindness, besides perhaps a few servants. The one parental figure she has left hates her and has robbed her of everything she once had, but she still learns to keep herself as happy as can be to bide the time (and she's not all smiles either because her very first scene has her look longingly at the castle before she starts scrubbing and she sighs unhappily). Hence why she turns to the doves. On top of that, she was raised a princess and promised the perks of being a princess but suddenly all that is taken away. She's forced to work as a scullery maid in rags, probably lost all her possessions and bedroom, so she's lost more than just her father. It makes sense that she would fantasize about wanting a prince, because beyond just companionship and love, marrying a prince is the only way to return to that station. Otherwise she stays a maid for the rest of her life.

JeanGreyForever wrote:

JJ didn't feel it was relevant because he didn't want us to view this moment as a tragedy because it means her "empowering" ending isn't so empowering after all.

 

I never thought about how Snow was raised.  You make a great point, JeanGrey, that she is a princess, she knew that she was a princess, yet everything she knew was taken away from her, not just her father.

That Beauty and the Beast Twisted Tale enchanted painting idea is awesome!

Snow White actually lived in the 16th century. We teach people it's ok to help others, but that doesn't mean we have to eat their food or do things that might endanger us. Still, I won't blame Snow White for eating the apple. She was such an innocent.

blackcauldron85 wrote:

Very well written, OnTheMoonAtLast!!  Re: Snow-- exactly, she is a young girl who really was alone in the world, who maybe never even was taught about stranger danger.  Part of her charm is that she is innocent and sweet.

Re: Tiana- Yeah, she earned her money, so she didn't need a man for assistance, but we just see the bond between Naveen and Tiana throughout the film...a character/person shouldn't be shamed for feeling what they feel (like what you said about Aurora!), so yes, she loved Naveen, and love is a human emotion.  You can have your restaurant and have a husband... I mentioned it elsewhere, but if someone has ever been in a relationship, then I don't think it's fair that they judge the Disney characters for wanting a relationship...You can have that and have other aspects of your life, too.  It's not like Tiana gave up her dream to be with Naveen.  With or without a man, she was getting her restaurant!

Thank you!! And yes, agreed with all you said as well. It does seem like people can get really offended when a woman wants love don't they? Which is so weird when you consider shipping wars and how many audiences get upset when their favorite leads don't end up in a relationship by a show finale or something.

And the thing is, all the disney heroines ever besides Merida end up with someone, so, why do a handful of the Princesses get singled out? :/ I can't do the math and decipher what on earth people want. It seems like romance is bad until it isn't.

jeangreyforever wrote:

You definitely can't win with critics since if Aurora put on a grin and bore it, she'd be accused of being fake and plasticky, but by crying and showing her emotions, she gets accused of being weak and spineless. In an old season of The Next Food Network Star, the exact same thing happened with a contestant. She was bullied by a chef and near the brink of tears but she told herself to hold it in and keep a smile on her face, which is the professional thing to do especially on TV. The male judges applauded her for that but ironically enough it was the female judges who complained that wasn't an authentic reaction and it's so fake that they can't stand her. After watching several seasons of this show with these judges, I know if the contestant had cried or exhibited any emotions (which she did later away from the judges), she'd have been criticized for that and how you can't do that on TV. As you pointed out, it's not just that Aurora is losing the love of her life. She's also now being told she has a royal burden and responsibilities and it's one thing to gaze longingly at a castle and wish you could live there, it's a whole other thing to actually live there as a ruler. Much like how Aladdin fantasizes about living in the palace and Jasmine quickly puts that idea down, stating how many rules and regulations you have to live by in a place like that.

That poor contestant! I do think that's true irl in general (although I've had a few women tell me I should smile too, and it's almost equally annoying). People don't like overly serious people or quiet people but they also don't want to take you seriously if you're upbeat and positive (see: Snow White). I definitely experienced this as as a kid- people thought it would be fun to make fun of me for being such a loner but the nerdy/alternative kids sometimes disliked me for being silly and chatty too. You really can't win!

And yes, I think people can be a bit clueless about how society worked in the past. Royals did not cut ribbons and kiss babies and smile and wave like beauty contestants, they ran whole castles and cities, they made treaties and alliances, they went to war. Just because they had money and expensive clothes doesn't mean it was a pleasant life all the time. Aurora must surely have some political training thanks to the fairies unless Phillip is expected to rule her country for her, but either way, she will still have the huge responsibility of managing a village-sized castle on a day to day basis, coordinating social events, writing letters to allies and potential allies, etc. I've heard people make the excuse that it's disney so real world rules don't apply, but that's a dumb excuse because they treat other movies like Frozen, Mulan, PATF, etc like real life and they are equally fantastic in nature.

jeangreyforever wrote:

You're also 100% right about how rare it is for a woman to have it all in mainstream Hollywood movies. I've seen only a few examples where you can have a lover/family but also power/a career. Rey is the best example since her "happy ending" involves her standing alone on a desert planet which is exactly how we met her. To be considered a strong and powerful Jedi, she's not allowed to love so she has to lose her soulmate and not grieve for him but instead look triumphant. Daisy Ridley even confirmed that there was more footage of her scene with Ben's death, when she says "no, no, no" as he dies but JJ didn't feel it was relevant because he didn't want us to view this moment as a tragedy because it means her "empowering" ending isn't so empowering after all. Even Wonder Woman ends up alone at the end of her two movies, although I'm holding out hope that in third and final film we'll get her reunited with Steve after all since Patty Jenkins has pointed out the double standards when it comes to female heroes in movies and how they're never allowed to save the day AND get the guy the way male heroes do.

Bless Patty, she gets it. It's true! I understand people wanting women to not have love interests sometimes because irl some women just are single and they deserve representation too. But they take it too far and just shame all women for wanting or finding love. Call me crazy but I don't think there's ever too much love in the world. WW's whole point is that she loves the world even when they don't deserve it and people somehow think "yeah, can't see this lady ever falling in love with someone". Rey is such a tragedy. What a gloomy end to an awesome saga. She started right back where she started, making her entire development entirely pointless.

jeangreyforever wrote:

A lot of people miss the context that Snow White is a 14 year old who has been used and abused for several years. She's been orphaned and has no one to love her or show her any affection or kindness, besides perhaps a few servants. The one parental figure she has left hates her and has robbed her of everything she once had, but she still learns to keep herself as happy as can be to bide the time (and she's not all smiles either because her very first scene has her look longingly at the castle before she starts scrubbing and she sighs unhappily). Hence why she turns to the doves. On top of that, she was raised a princess and promised the perks of being a princess but suddenly all that is taken away. She's forced to work as a scullery maid in rags, probably lost all her possessions and bedroom, so she's lost more than just her father. It makes sense that she would fantasize about wanting a prince, because beyond just companionship and love, marrying a prince is the only way to return to that station. Otherwise she stays a maid for the rest of her life.

All good points! Can't add anything else.

OnTheMoonAtLast wrote:

jeangreyforever wrote:

You definitely can't win with critics since if Aurora put on a grin and bore it, she'd be accused of being fake and plasticky, but by crying and showing her emotions, she gets accused of being weak and spineless. In an old season of The Next Food Network Star, the exact same thing happened with a contestant. She was bullied by a chef and near the brink of tears but she told herself to hold it in and keep a smile on her face, which is the professional thing to do especially on TV. The male judges applauded her for that but ironically enough it was the female judges who complained that wasn't an authentic reaction and it's so fake that they can't stand her. After watching several seasons of this show with these judges, I know if the contestant had cried or exhibited any emotions (which she did later away from the judges), she'd have been criticized for that and how you can't do that on TV. As you pointed out, it's not just that Aurora is losing the love of her life. She's also now being told she has a royal burden and responsibilities and it's one thing to gaze longingly at a castle and wish you could live there, it's a whole other thing to actually live there as a ruler. Much like how Aladdin fantasizes about living in the palace and Jasmine quickly puts that idea down, stating how many rules and regulations you have to live by in a place like that.

That poor contestant! I do think that's true irl in general (although I've had a few women tell me I should smile too, and it's almost equally annoying). People don't like overly serious people or quiet people but they also don't want to take you seriously if you're upbeat and positive (see: Snow White). I definitely experienced this as as a kid- people thought it would be fun to make fun of me for being such a loner but the nerdy/alternative kids sometimes disliked me for being silly and chatty too. You really can't win!

And yes, I think people can be a bit clueless about how society worked in the past. Royals did not cut ribbons and kiss babies and smile and wave like beauty contestants, they ran whole castles and cities, they made treaties and alliances, they went to war. Just because they had money and expensive clothes doesn't mean it was a pleasant life all the time. Aurora must surely have some political training thanks to the fairies unless Phillip is expected to rule her country for her, but either way, she will still have the huge responsibility of managing a village-sized castle on a day to day basis, coordinating social events, writing letters to allies and potential allies, etc. I've heard people make the excuse that it's disney so real world rules don't apply, but that's a dumb excuse because they treat other movies like Frozen, Mulan, PATF, etc like real life and they are equally fantastic in nature.

jeangreyforever wrote:

You're also 100% right about how rare it is for a woman to have it all in mainstream Hollywood movies. I've seen only a few examples where you can have a lover/family but also power/a career. Rey is the best example since her "happy ending" involves her standing alone on a desert planet which is exactly how we met her. To be considered a strong and powerful Jedi, she's not allowed to love so she has to lose her soulmate and not grieve for him but instead look triumphant. Daisy Ridley even confirmed that there was more footage of her scene with Ben's death, when she says "no, no, no" as he dies but JJ didn't feel it was relevant because he didn't want us to view this moment as a tragedy because it means her "empowering" ending isn't so empowering after all. Even Wonder Woman ends up alone at the end of her two movies, although I'm holding out hope that in third and final film we'll get her reunited with Steve after all since Patty Jenkins has pointed out the double standards when it comes to female heroes in movies and how they're never allowed to save the day AND get the guy the way male heroes do.

Bless Patty, she gets it. It's true! I understand people wanting women to not have love interests sometimes because irl some women just are single and they deserve representation too. But they take it too far and just shame all women for wanting or finding love. Call me crazy but I don't think there's ever too much love in the world. WW's whole point is that she loves the world even when they don't deserve it and people somehow think "yeah, can't see this lady ever falling in love with someone".  Rey is such a tragedy. What a gloomy end to an awesome saga. She started right back where she started, making her entire development entirely pointless.

jeangreyforever wrote:

A lot of people miss the context that Snow White is a 14 year old who has been used and abused for several years. She's been orphaned and has no one to love her or show her any affection or kindness, besides perhaps a few servants. The one parental figure she has left hates her and has robbed her of everything she once had, but she still learns to keep herself as happy as can be to bide the time (and she's not all smiles either because her very first scene has her look longingly at the castle before she starts scrubbing and she sighs unhappily). Hence why she turns to the doves. On top of that, she was raised a princess and promised the perks of being a princess but suddenly all that is taken away. She's forced to work as a scullery maid in rags, probably lost all her possessions and bedroom, so she's lost more than just her father. It makes sense that she would fantasize about wanting a prince, because beyond just companionship and love, marrying a prince is the only way to return to that station. Otherwise she stays a maid for the rest of her life.

Oh women can definitely be guilty of this too since they've become accustomed to this treatment as a societal norm. There's no middle-ground for some, we're either too quiet and "passive" or too assertive and vocal. I remember my speech/teen leadership teacher in high school said it'll be much harder for women to be taken seriously because it's very hard for them to find a balance since no matter what they do, they'll likely be seen at the opposite end of an extreme.

Agree with everything you said. A lot of it is just plain ignorance because modern viewers transplant modern notions onto these movies which are clearly a product of their times (such as age gaps between couples). During the 90s, it seemed like this was the pinnacle of feminism but even how women are portrayed in the 90s can be considered outdated now. So for all the woke youngsters who constantly cancel everything that isn't 100% up-to-date with their views, I'd like to point out that some of the media they consume today will likely be outdated in a few years, maybe even just a year, and what are they going to do, cancel that next? Most of the Revival films from the 2010s will likely be considered similarly dated after some time like the Walt-era films or even the 90s films are regarded as now. Although I'm willing to bet that several of those Revival films will not have the same longevity. Also even as a Frozen fan, it makes me laugh when I hear people say that Frozen is such a historically accurate movie and more realistic than say Sleeping Beauty when lots of people have pointed out how many things are flat out incorrect in Frozen like how there's no ruler for 3 years after the parents die but before Elsa is crowned. Or how even her crown is portrayed like a dainty tiara and not a true coronation crown fit for a queen (since I've seen some Elsa stans criticize Aurora for only wearing a princess tiara and not a true crown of leadership like Elsa even though hers is pretty much the same).

I think it's definitely fine to see women represented who are not interested in love or having families because they exist and deserve representation. But I find it interesting that we never have this discussion about men and whether they should be single or in love because they're just allowed to be whatever they want to be. I never hear complaints that we need more single men representation or more committed and in-love men represented the way I've seen with women's depictions in media. And while there may have been an imbalance in decades past where we only saw family-oriented women, I think we are experiencing the extreme opposite end of the spectrum now where we only see women who think disavowing love will make them stronger. I also found it interesting how many male fanboys were upset with WW1984 because the whole ending is about her saving the world with love and people found that too unrealistic and not superheroish enough. I'm so glad Patty Jenkins is doing the next Star Wars film because I trust her with female characters. The funny thing about Daisy Ridley is that she's actually said multiple times how happy she is with how Rey's story ended and she doesn't think there's anything more to tell. But at the same time, she's admitted to being a Reylo and how important that dynamic was between Rey and Ben for her (and how it was romantic but also more because they shaped each other's lives in every way) and said she loves WandaVision. So I'm curious where the disconnect is here and why Daisy can feel Reylo was such a huge part of her character but then also feel that Rey alone at the end is a satisfying ending, especially when she loves WandaVision which shows us the exact opposite narrative.[/quote]