Censorship and Changes in Disney films

How do you guys feel about censorship and changes made in Disney films?  Things such as:

*Changes to Big Bad Wolf in The Three Little Pigs
*Fantasia's edited-out centaurettes
*Goofy's missing cigarette in Saludos Amigos
*Song of the South never releasing on home video in the U.S. (besides being on the Sing-Along Songs video(s)
*Pecos Bill's missing cigarette in Melody Time
*The 2-frames nude person in The Rescuers
*chest size reductions in Pixar's Knick Knack short
*The priest's knee in The Little Mermaid
*"Human Again"'s addition to Beauty and the Beast, and the new updates (like cleaning up the castle).  
*"Good kitty, take off and go" and "Arabian Knights" lyric changes in Aladdin, and "cleaning up" animation for IMAX
*The Lion King's addition of "The Morning Report," in addition to crocodile/waterfall animation changes for the IMAX release
*Changes to lyrics in Pocahontas' "Savages"

And future censorship:
Disney+ put content warnings on Dumbo, Peter Pan, Lady and the Tramp, The Jungle Book, The Aristocats, & Swiss Family Robinson last year.  (https://www.insider.com/disney-plus-warning-racist-scenes-stereotypes-advisory-2020-10).  And as of this year, children's accounts on Disney+ don't allow (some or all, I'm not sure) of these films to be played at all.  (https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/03/disney-pulls-peter-pan-dumbo-others-from-childrens-profiles-due-to-stereotypes-negative-depictions.html)  Do you think they'll ever fully edit these films, such as on a Blu-ray release, or on adult Disney+ accounts?

Obviously comparing changing waterfall animation to offensive stereotypes is like comparing apples to oranges, but they're still updates that were made to the films.  I did not include everything, I'm sure, just what I could think of off the top of my head.

What about...
- The host in "Fantasia (1940)"
- Whatever's covered by Jessica's dress to avoid controversy from "Who Framed Roger Rabbit (1988)"
- Clip mix-up from the end of "Part of Your World" from "The Little Mermaid (1989)" (as shown in the Diamond Edition)
- Skulls in Gaston's eyes from "Beauty and the Beast (1991)"
- The dust that says "SFX" from "The Lion King (1994)"
- The addition of "If I Never Knew You" and its reprise in "Pocahontas (1995)"

I don't really approve of censorship for the most part unless something is absolutely offensive or egregious. Even then, I think whitewashing history by pretending things didn't happen is really dangerous and feels too similar to Holocaust deniers for my taste, as it becomes easy to repeat history then if we aren't willing to learn from the past.

I know with Disney it's a bit trickier because these movies are mainly geared towards small and impressionable children. Which is why I don't have an issue with SOTS not being released on Disney+ but I think "banning" the movie entirely from the US is not the answer and it should get an independent release at least. I dislike smoking but I've never been a fan of how Disney censors their classic characters from smoking, especially when movies like Pinocchio and Peter Pan didn't resort to that so not sure why Goofy smoking is such a big deal then. I guess because it's not portrayed in a negative light with Goofy like it is in those movies.

I also don't approve at all of Disney not letting children's profiles on Disney+ watch some of those classic movies listed. I think that's really regressive and a form of censorship, especially in the case of The Jungle Book where there specifically is not any discrimination against Black people with King Louie. I think sometimes Disney goes too far which is why I worry about the Pinocchio ride since I saw parents complaining about it online and how Disney is promoting child slavery with that scene with Pinocchio in the cage.

I was never bothered by it tbh. I think I watching the uncensored Fantasia would take me out of it more than the censored version, but I guess it also helps that I never saw Fantasia uncensored.

As for changes for The Lion King and Aladdin, they are unnecessary, but also really small that I don't really care.

What were the changes to Savages?

I think it's a shame that The Black Cauldron is not available on Blu-ray and I honestly don't understand why.

By the way there's that dryer in Lilo and Stitch that was changed to a Pizza box, and Toy Story 2 has that Stincky Pete blooper removed.

I don't think there should ever be censorship. I think all of the things Disney has censored should not be censored and instead have parents explain to children what was wrong with a film when the child watches it. If a child has a problem with something they can bring it up to their parents and the parents will explain it. And I just have to say censoring The Jungle Book is incredibly unnecessary as there is no racism in it.

I am fine with the altering of animation and such to make a film "better" as long as the original theatrical version is also available.

Farerb wrote:

What were the changes to Savages?

The original version (as heard on the soundtrack) has "Their whole disgusting race is like a curse!" (instead of "Here's what you get when races are diverse!"); "Dirty redskin devils!" (instead of "Dirty shrieking devils!"); "Let's go kill a few, men!" (instead of "Let's go get a few, men!")

CoolZDane & Farerb: Yes, those are good examples, too! (I remember thinking of Gaston but didn't end up remembering to type him!)

Disney Dusty wrote:

I am fine with the altering of animation and such to make a film "better" as long as the original theatrical version is also available.

Are you okay with it across-the-board or only when the original creators decide to make the changes?

JeanGreyForever wrote:

I think whitewashing history by pretending things didn't happen is really dangerous

 
That's a really good point.  

JeanGreyForever wrote:

so not sure why Goofy smoking is such a big deal then. I guess because it's not portrayed in a negative light with Goofy like it is in those movies.

I had wondered the same thing, but you make a good point that Goofy and Pecos Bill don't have repercussions from smoking.

JeanGreyForever wrote:

I know with Disney it's a bit trickier because these movies are mainly geared towards small and impressionable children.

Disney Dusty wrote:

instead have parents explain to children what was wrong with a film when the child watches it.

It's definitely different when children (and families, but children!) are the target market for these films.  I don't know exactly how I feel- that's why I made the thread!  We know from the "Diney Fast Play" days that parents use these films as a babysitter often, so I'm betting that Disney feels that a lot of parents will not have a conversation about the more controversial aspects of the films, so Disney takes it upon themselves to censor them.  I think as far as the racial edits- that doesn't bother me as much as maybe some of the others do.  But I, too, am opposed to smoking, but with them picking and choosing...I mean, they haven't erased Cruella's cigarette- yes, she's a bad guy, but how many kids love her?  I don't know if seeing smoking in a Disney film- whether in the Goofy context or in the Pinocchio context- will lead a child to smoke (I know that just because I saw bad or mature behavior in a film or TV show didn't mean that I was going to do it, but everyone is different), but I know that Disney is trying to be responsible.  Especially in the age of home video/streaming, these kids will be more familiar with the content than someone back in the day who saw it maybe once every 7 years and had the storybook at home.

And I agree about The Jungle Book.  The Wikipedia blurb on King Louie's page says, "The characterization of King Louie has frequently been cited as an example of racial stereotyping in Disney films.  However, in his 2004 book The Gospel According to Disney, Mark Pinsky asserts that a child in the current environment (as opposed to in the late 1960s) would not discern any racial dimension to the portrayal. Pinsky also relates Orlando Sentinel's film critic Jay Bogar's assertion that "the primates could be perceived as representing African Americans in a time of turmoil, but [that Bogar] saw no racism in the portrayal.""

Speaking of The Jungle Book, I sure hope a Signature Collection edition gets announced sometime this year. I mean the animated version.

Oh, fun! I like a bit of controversy and have opinions on all of these. So here we go!
Sorry about the formatting, codes apparently don't work.

*Changes to Big Bad Wolf in The Three Little Pigs
Absolutely fine. Done by the original creators (right?), it portrayed a harmful stereotype with no bearing on the plot or characters.

*Fantasia's edited-out centaurettes
I like Sunflower and wish there were the option to have her in, but I completely understand why she was cut. Done by Walt.

*Goofy's missing cigarette in Saludos Amigos
Doesn't bother me. Yes, the edit came without anyone working on the film given the ok, but was this the only instance of Goofy smoking? I personally don't see him as a smoker, so this cut doesn't personally bother me.

*Pecos Bill's missing cigarette in Melody Time
Bothers me. Unlike Goofy, a timeless character seen in lots of different ways, Pecos Bill belongs in the old west, and he smoked. Plus they did some fun animation with his habit.

*Song of the South never releasing on home video in the U.S. (besides being on the Sing-Along Songs video(s)
It should've been a Disney Treasure release. Intro from Leonard Maltin, retrospective with Whoopi Goldberg, done. The opportunity has passed and doesn't look like it'll come again. The film itself should be viewed in its timeframe and could be a great learning tool. Too bad it's boring as f.

*The 2-frames nude person in The Rescuers
Fine to take out. Wasn't this added after the theatrical release, before VHS? Either way, it's two frames of animation muddled with live-action cuttings. Fun little easter egg, but never a part of the movie.

*chest size reductions in Pixar's Knick Knack short
Don't need it personally, but I can see how the old version doesn't coincide with the image Pixar now wants to uphold. Just wish they'd gone for some middle ground, the no-chest look also isn't it.

*The priest's knee in The Little Mermaid
Stupid, should've been left as it was. How do you not see that it's a knee? How does his spine make sense without it?

*"Human Again"'s addition to Beauty and the Beast, and the new updates (like cleaning up the castle).
Fine as an option, keep the original available. Same goes for the WiP-version, which is my preferred choice. Just make sure the original theatrical edition actually is the ote, not marred by changes stemming from other versions.

*"Good kitty, take off and go" and "Arabian Knights" lyric changes in Aladdin, and "cleaning up" animation for IMAX
Arabian Nights: good edit. Listen to people, if your work offends them and you can change it, do so.
Good kitty: just who hears Aladdin talking to a tiger and hears good teenagers take off their clothes? Who?
Cleaning up animation: I'm fine with Aladdin's, but have some words about the Lion King's...

*The Lion King's addition of "The Morning Report," in addition to crocodile/waterfall animation changes for the IMAX release
Morning report: fine as an option, though I hate how it's a replacement scene, not an addition as in BatB. I never watch the movie with it, but will watch the scene as a bonus feature. Just... can we redub Simba?
Crocodiles: I'm fine with changing them, as I believe it was for legal reasons. The directors have tried passing it off as 'the animation didn't fit the rest of the scene', but it that's the case, why does the new version stand out more? It looks poorly done and in the Lion King that's a crime.
Waterfall: 'We couldn't make the waterfall look like water back then.' Maybe not, but you made it look warm, inviting and magical. The 'new' waterfall doesn't have any of those qualities, it's a detriment to the scene.

*Changes to lyrics in Pocahontas' "Savages"
I prefer the old lyrics, because the song itself embodies racism. That's not a nice world and doesn't include nice language. However, this is another case of Disney listening to their audience and adjusting accordingly, I can't fault that.

Disney+ put content warnings on Dumbo, Peter Pan, Lady and the Tramp, The Jungle Book, The Aristocats, & Swiss Family Robinson last year.
Warnings are fine. I remember the outrage from years ago, when similar warnings appeared ahead of Pinocchio and 101 Dalmatians because of smoking. I have no problems with warnings.

And as of this year, children's accounts on Disney+ don't allow (some or all, I'm not sure) of these films to be played at all.
Also not a problem. All this does is disable people from using these films as a babysitter, instead making them family films again. Films to enjoy together, and elaborate where appropriate.

Do you think they'll ever fully edit these films, such as on a Blu-ray release, or on adult Disney+ accounts?
Well, that possibility is one reason I bought Blu-rays. It's likely the last time these films will be released on a physical format, so I want to own them. Ain't nobody taking away my Disney!

Nandor, Wikipedia says the Big Bad Wolf edit was made in 1948, so Walt was around, so we are good!

While I don't care as much about the SOTS live-action segments, the animated segments are pure gold.  I re-watched them recently, and they're just really good.  Do you think the animated segments are boring?

Regarding The Rescuers, Wikipedia says: "A Disney spokeswoman said that the images in The Rescuers were placed in the film during post-production, but she declined to say what they were or who placed them..."  So it's possible those frames were in the theatrical film, but it moved so quickly, only pausing frame-by-frame on video would alert someone to their existence.

Regarding "Good kitty:" When I was a kid, I noticed the vocal change, but I couldn't make out what he was saying until I read it online many years later!  (And then I couldn't un-hear it!)

SirNandor wrote:

Morning report: fine as an option, though I hate how it's a replacement scene, not an addition as in BatB.

Yes, I agree with this.

SirNandor wrote:

Crocodiles: I'm fine with changing them, as I believe it was for legal reasons. The directors have tried passing it off as 'the animation didn't fit the rest of the scene', but it that's the case, why does the new version stand out more? It looks poorly done and in the Lion King that's a crime.

Yes, they TOTALLY stand out more now!  And while I can't easily find an article right now, yes, an artist said that the old version of the crocs were too similar to a painting of his or something.

I just found this link that highlights all the changes for TLK releases:
https://lionking.fandom.com/wiki/The_Lion_King_series_re-release_changes (and found this one too: https://screenrant.com/lion-king-original-movie-disney-changes-2002/)

Regarding the changes in The Lion King, they never really stood out to me, even now when I know that some things changed, it doesn't bother me while watching the film. Same with Aladdin and The Little Mermaid.
The only thing that bothers me is the Something There mistake because Lumiere and the feather duster start closing the door but it's cut in the middle.

Regarding the special editions, I wrote this on DVDizzy, but I'll copy it here:

Human Again - I like the song in and out of itself, but I don't like its inclusion in the film ten years after the film was done, I mainly don't like the attempt at humor before the song starts, the crickets sound effect doesn't fit the tone of the film, I don't like that the rose is being used in an unnecessary joke when it was always taken seriously by the characters and the audience. The animation seems worse, more off model characters, more cartoony for this type of film, and yet it looks too shiny too new (almost like the later DTVs like Ariel's Beginning and Cinderella III). In addition, they decided to add that awful glass breaking sound effect that interferes with the score. It also breaks up Something There with its playoff, musically its awkward to have Something There -> Human Again -> playoff to Something There, there's also no hint in the entire score for Human Again (understandably because the score was made without Human Again in the film), unlike If I Never Knew You where the score is filled with it.
As for its role in the film, I feel like Be Our Guest already made the Enchanted Object's desire pretty clear while also providing a relief from the two very dramatic moments, one which came before and one that would come immediately after (letting Belle and the viewers know that this is a magical place and not an intimidating one). I don't think it was needed to have another song for the objects, especially if they decided to cut the parts about Belle and the Beast becoming closer to one another (the tick tock part) otherwise it's just a song about the objects, which are not the main characters, and Something There already does the job of the cut parts of Human Again, which were the important parts of the song IMO.
So instead of having Something There leading us to Beauty and the Beast, both are about Belle and the Beast, we have another song in the middle focused on the objects, which is why I think it's unnecessary and kind of ruins the flow of the film itself.

The Morning Report - I don't like the song or its inclusion. The song is not good, it doesn't fit musically with the rest of the film and they cut a somewhat iconic scene in its place.

If I Never Knew You - Great song and I feel like the film is incomplete without it, but I also understand why it was cut. It's a shame that Disney never released this version on Blu-ray.

blackcauldron85 wrote:

Do you think the animated segments are boring?

I love the shorts. Brer Rabbit, Brer Fox and Brer Bear have longstanding careers in Disney comics here, so they've always been a part of my life. I'm sad the only animation they're in has been locked away (and such gorgeous animation too!). One of the shorts is problematic in itself, so it's unlikely we'll see them released seperately.

blackcauldron85 wrote:

I just found this link that highlights all the changes for TLK releases:
https://lionking.fandom.com/wiki/The_Lion_King_series_re-release_changes (and found this one too: https://screenrant.com/lion-king-original-movie-disney-changes-2002/)

I read the second one years ago, the first one is new to me. I like comparing the changes, thanks.

Farerb wrote:

t doesn't bother me while watching the film

Which is good. Keep enjoying the films in any way you prefer!

Farerb wrote:

Human Again - I like the song in and out of itself, but...

All of this. I realise I didn't specify why I prefer the film without HA, but this is why. Well said.

Farerb wrote:

If I Never Knew You - Great song and I feel like the film is incomplete without it, but I also understand why it was cut. It's a shame that Disney never released this version on Blu-ray.

I refuse to buy the Blu-ray for this reason, even though the original version is offered as should. I'm hypocritical like that  :D

I also left oout a lot of points from the replies before, because I didn't want to make a monster post. I'll get to them later ;)
Last point though, the clouds in the Lion King! Disney never replaced the discs here, so I'm stuck with either the DVD or annoyance.

Quote :

It's definitely different when children (and families, but children!) are the target market for these films.  I don't know exactly how I feel- that's why I made the thread!  We know from the "Diney Fast Play" days that parents use these films as a babysitter often, so I'm betting that Disney feels that a lot of parents will not have a conversation about the more controversial aspects of the films, so Disney takes it upon themselves to censor them.  I think as far as the racial edits- that doesn't bother me as much as maybe some of the others do.  But I, too, am opposed to smoking, but with them picking and choosing...I mean, they haven't erased Cruella's cigarette- yes, she's a bad guy, but how many kids love her?  I don't know if seeing smoking in a Disney film- whether in the Goofy context or in the Pinocchio context- will lead a child to smoke (I know that just because I saw bad or mature behavior in a film or TV show didn't mean that I was going to do it, but everyone is different), but I know that Disney is trying to be responsible.  Especially in the age of home video/streaming, these kids will be more familiar with the content than someone back in the day who saw it maybe once every 7 years and had the storybook at home.

And I agree about The Jungle Book.  The Wikipedia blurb on King Louie's page says, "The characterization of King Louie has frequently been cited as an example of racial stereotyping in Disney films.  However, in his 2004 book The Gospel According to Disney, Mark Pinsky asserts that a child in the current environment (as opposed to in the late 1960s) would not discern any racial dimension to the portrayal. Pinsky also relates Orlando Sentinel's film critic Jay Bogar's assertion that "the primates could be perceived as representing African Americans in a time of turmoil, but [that Bogar] saw no racism in the portrayal.""

The thing about bad guys is that there are a lot of popular villains like Maleficent, Darth Vader, Thanos, Joker, etc. who do terrible things but adults and children still love them and dress up as them and buy their merch. Cruella in particular is hugely popular and sells lots of merchandise so even though she's evil, that hasn't stopped people from admiring her and emulating her in some behaviors. So it's a weird double standard where Goofy can't smoke but Cruella can, when both are quite popular. The good thing of course is that the Blu-Ray for Saludos Amigos isn't censored anymore, and that may also be why the movie only got a DMC Exclusive release.

I feel like Disney needs to realize that in order for a movie to have a plot, there has to be an antagonist, the protagonist has to make some mistakes, and/or something has to go wrong. Just because a Disney movie portrays something negative doesn't mean they stand behind it and advocate that negative thing. They can't be held responsible for a child who decides he wants to smoke because he saw Cruella or Pinocchio smoke or a teenage girl runs away from home because she saw Ariel or Jasmine do that. Parents can blame Disney for any reason in that case (there's a popular meme online about how kids tell their parents that they are allowed to break rules because they grew up on Disney movies which told them it's okay to stay out at night after midnight like Cinderella, or not wear clothes like Tarzan, or take food from a stranger like Snow White, etc.) but parents need to realize that at the end of the day, they're the ones responsible for their children's upbringing not Disney.

And The Jungle Book thing is really ironic because they made a specific casting decision in order to not offend Black people but that still didn't help. Floyd Norman has talked a lot about how it's a lot of ignorance coming from modern-day audiences who aren't familiar with the culture from the time that these movies came out so they read into something that doesn't exist, like "racism" in Dumbo which he claims isn't racist.

SirNandor wrote:

Oh, fun! I like a bit of controversy and have opinions on all of these. So here we go!
Sorry about the formatting, codes apparently don't work.

*Changes to Big Bad Wolf in The Three Little Pigs
Absolutely fine. Done by the original creators (right?), it portrayed a harmful stereotype with no bearing on the plot or characters.

*Fantasia's edited-out centaurettes
I like Sunflower and wish there were the option to have her in, but I completely understand why she was cut. Done by Walt.

*Goofy's missing cigarette in Saludos Amigos
Doesn't bother me. Yes, the edit came without anyone working on the film given the ok, but was this the only instance of Goofy smoking? I personally don't see him as a smoker, so this cut doesn't personally bother me.

*Pecos Bill's missing cigarette in Melody Time
Bothers me. Unlike Goofy, a timeless character seen in lots of different ways, Pecos Bill belongs in the old west, and he smoked. Plus they did some fun animation with his habit.

*Song of the South never releasing on home video in the U.S. (besides being on the Sing-Along Songs video(s)
It should've been a Disney Treasure release. Intro from Leonard Maltin, retrospective with Whoopi Goldberg, done. The opportunity has passed and doesn't look like it'll come again. The film itself should be viewed in its timeframe and could be a great learning tool. Too bad it's boring as f.

I'm fine with the changes to Three Little Pigs as well.

Same with the Fantasia ones. I know Sunflower has some fans out there but I can see why she would be offensive to most people so it was a good decision to remove her. However, I've heard mixed things about whether Walt was responsible for removing Sunflower or not. I don't think there's any evidence he made that choice especially since Sunflower was removed from the Fantasia release in 1969, after Walt had passed.

I don't agree with Goofy not smoking. It may be OOC but in most of these shorts, the characters are playing roles and it makes sense that a cowboy would smoke and Goofy is playing a cowboy. It's not a short that most children will ever be familiar with anyway and Disney can just put a disclaimer anyway.

Also agree with SOTS although I don't think it's boring.

Farerb wrote:

Regarding the changes in The Lion King, they never really stood out to me, even now when I know that some things changed, it doesn't bother me while watching the film. Same with Aladdin and The Little Mermaid.
The only thing that bothers me is the Something There mistake because Lumiere and the feather duster start closing the door but it's cut in the middle.

Regarding the special editions, I wrote this on DVDizzy, but I'll copy it here:

Human Again - I like the song in and out of itself, but I don't like its inclusion in the film ten years after the film was done, I mainly don't like the attempt at humor before the song starts, the crickets sound effect doesn't fit the tone of the film, I don't like that the rose is being used in an unnecessary joke when it was always taken seriously by the characters and the audience. The animation seems worse, more off model characters, more cartoony for this type of film, and yet it looks too shiny too new (almost like the later DTVs like Ariel's Beginning and Cinderella III). In addition, they decided to add that awful glass breaking sound effect that interferes with the score. It also breaks up Something There with its playoff, musically its awkward to have Something There -> Human Again -> playoff to Something There, there's also no hint in the entire score for Human Again (understandably because the score was made without Human Again in the film), unlike If I Never Knew You where the score is filled with it.
As for its role in the film, I feel like Be Our Guest already made the Enchanted Object's desire pretty clear while also providing a relief from the two very dramatic moments, one which came before and one that would come immediately after (letting Belle and the viewers know that this is a magical place and not an intimidating one). I don't think it was needed to have another song for the objects, especially if they decided to cut the parts about Belle and the Beast becoming closer to one another (the tick tock part) otherwise it's just a song about the objects, which are not the main characters, and Something There already does the job of the cut parts of Human Again, which were the important parts of the song IMO.
So instead of having Something There leading us to Beauty and the Beast, both are about Belle and the Beast, we have another song in the middle focused on the objects, which is why I think it's unnecessary and kind of ruins the flow of the film itself.

The Morning Report - I don't like the song or its inclusion. The song is not good, it doesn't fit musically with the rest of the film and they cut a somewhat iconic scene in its place.

If I Never Knew You - Great song and I feel like the film is incomplete without it, but I also understand why it was cut. It's a shame that Disney never released this version on Blu-ray.

I have similar feelings. I like Human Again as a song but I don't think it works so well in the actual movie.

For TLK, I didn't like how they replaced a segment rather than just added it on and who actually asked for this particular song? The Broadway show has way better songs for adult Simba, Nala, and Scar which I would have picked anyday over Morning Report. The badly dubbed Simba really stands out since he doesn't sound anything like himself and it would have been better to pick a sequence where they did not have to recast anyone.

For Pocahontas, the 10th Anniversary Edition is the definitive take for me now and I only watch this version.

Farerb wrote:

If I Never Knew You - Great song and I feel like the film is incomplete without it, but I also understand why it was cut. It's a shame that Disney never released this version on Blu-ray.

I agree with all of this.  The movie is one of my absolute favorites, so I still enjoy it without the song, but whenever that scene comes on (if I'm not watching the 10th Ann.), I get sad that it's not included.

SirNandor wrote:

One of the shorts is problematic in itself, so it's unlikely we'll see them released seperately.

Yeah, I doubt that they will ever see the light of day.  Yay for bootlegs.

JeanGreyForever wrote:

The badly dubbed Simba really stands out since he doesn't sound anything like himself and it would have been better to pick a sequence where they did not have to recast anyone.

This so much!!  Obviously, B&tB's Platinum Edition set the precident, and Disney put pressure on the filmmakers to put a new song in TLK, right?  (Or was it the filmmakers that wanted a challenge?)  And surely they were on a tight schedule, so they chose the shortest song?  Maybe?

blackcauldron85 wrote:

SirNandor wrote:

One of the shorts is problematic in itself, so it's unlikely we'll see them released seperately.

Yeah, I doubt that they will ever see the light of day.  Yay for bootlegs.

JeanGreyForever wrote:

The badly dubbed Simba really stands out since he doesn't sound anything like himself and it would have been better to pick a sequence where they did not have to recast anyone.

This so much!!  Obviously, B&tB's Platinum Edition set the precident, and Disney put pressure on the filmmakers to put a new song in TLK, right?  (Or was it the filmmakers that wanted a challenge?)  And surely they were on a tight schedule, so they chose the shortest song?  Maybe?

One thing to keep in mind is that the term "tar baby" was not considered a racial slur when SOTS appeared. I don't know when the negative connotation for that term came about, but the movie used that because it's part of the actual African folklore. It's a bit like how the swastika was a Hindu symbol for peace until the Nazis subverted it for their own use.

I think Don Hahn, the producer for BATB and TLK, is mainly responsible for wanting to rebrand these classic movies with more material so everyone would want to get their hands on them. It worked for BATB because they had a deleted song they had tried to incorporate into the movie (and even then the results are somewhat iffy because in the final movie, Human Again was replaced with Something There, which is why there's some overlap between the two), but there was no such thing for TLK with The Morning Report. That was one of the weakest musical choices they could have gone with and I'd prefer The Madness of King Scar (a reprise of Be Prepared when Scar is trying to make Nala his bride which causes her to leave Pride Rock), Shadowlands (sung by Nala after she leaves Pride Rock), or Endless Night (the song Simba sings when he's trying to reach his father in the sky). The last song even has its score in the movie so whenever I watch the movie, I feel like the song is missing.

Blackcauldron85, I only am ok with such changes when the original creators approve them. By the way, can I call you by your real name on here? Thank you for looking up that info on the Jungle Book racism claim! I knew they weren't racist! Does Disney+ really have a warning before Jungle Book about that?! That's as dumb as changing Aladdin'a "Good kitty" and Mermaid's priest's knee!

I love reading all your thoughts on these, guys! Unfortunately I don't know how to quote on here with my phone, so I'll just say I stand by what I said. I am only willing to give on the changing of the crocs in Lion King because of legal reasons because they had to, and removing the naked woman in Rescuers because that was likely not the original director's or the heads of Disney's intent. White-washing history is bad, even if it offends other people, because, like jeangreyforever said, it's part of history and we should learn from it. Plus, it's art and people should realize it was made in the past, no one's purposely trying to offend with the movie today. I also didn't know Sunflower wasn't removed till after Walt died, so I think she should stay in, too. I am however ok with the Three Little Pigs change if the original is also available. Like I said I am ok with any changes by the original creators if the originals are also available.

Farerb, what you said about "Human Again" is so spot on!

Jeangreyforever, thanks for telling me about the Jungle Book casting and how even more that film isn't racist! Also about the tar baby!

I also agree Disney should release Song of the South with an introduction and retrospective, SirNandor!

JeanGreyForever wrote:

I think Don Hahn, the producer for BATB and TLK, is mainly responsible for wanting to rebrand these classic movies with more material so everyone would want to get their hands on them.

That's right- Don was the producer on both films.  That makes sense.

Disney Dusty wrote:

Blackcauldron85, I only am ok with such changes when the original creators approve them. By the way, can I call you by your real name on here? Thank you for looking up that info on the Jungle Book racism claim! I knew they weren't racist! Does Disney+ really have a warning before Jungle Book about that?! That's as dumb as changing Aladdin'a "Good kitty" and Mermaid's priest's knee!

Yes, of course you can call me what you want!  I wonder if there have been cases where changes have been made after the fact, and the original filmmakers were publicly unhappy (I'm on a lunch break and I think that searching would take too long right now!)...

Disney Duster wrote:

Unfortunately I don't know how to quote on here with my phone

What I do is just literally type bracket (whatever "[" is called), quote, "=", "]".  I don't often hit the actual "quote" button.  So just literally type "[quote="user name"] into the dialog box, and to end it, "[/]" and then you are quoting someone!

@Disney Dusty - You're welcome! Floyd Norman has also talked about The Jungle Book and how it isn't racist. I think Disney was just afraid of any potential backlash since people constantly call it racist anyway which is why they put the warning label.

The Sunflower thing I've heard mixed stuff about. I haven't heard anything to prove Walt ordered her removed (I don't think Fantasia was re-released after his death until 1969 when she was removed, so it's possible he did say that the next time it's released, she should be gone) or that he didn't order her removed.

@blackcauldron85 - I know when the Aladdin Platinum came out, a lot of people were surprised that Proud of Your Boy wasn't added into the movie considering how heavily they promoted it and how beloved that song is. So that also makes me think that Don Hahn was the major figure pushing for his movies to have new, never-before-seen material.

Yes, it was Don Hahn. He literally said that what George Lucas did to Star Wars was cool and they should do it to their own movies.

I don't really have an issue with that, I just wish they chose better songs (in TLK's case) or executed the songs better (in BATB's case). And I actually think some of the other 90s movies (Aladdin, Hunchback, etc.) would benefit from an extra song or two.

Thanks Amy!

Oh, ok glad to know that jeangreyforever!

Alright, time to tackle some more. Sorry for now directly quoting, but I'm too lazy.

- The host in "Fantasia (1940)"
If I recall correctly, the original audio was lost. I don't see a better solution here, but may have to brush up on my knowledge.

- Whatever's covered by Jessica's dress to avoid controversy from "Who Framed Roger Rabbit (1988)"
Yeah, pity. I get why it's done and it doesn't bother me. I personally lament the cut, just because it tickles my funny bone.

- Clip mix-up from the end of "Part of Your World" from "The Little Mermaid (1989)" (as shown in the Diamond Edition)
Gah! Another one they never bothered to fix here. I much prefer this restoration to the Platinum one, but this irks me every time. I think about it from the start of the film to the moment it happens. Same with the missing cloud in the Lion King, it occupies my mind far too much.

- Skulls in Gaston's eyes from "Beauty and the Beast (1991)"
This wasn't in the theatrical edition? Or were they taken out?

- The dust that says "SFX" from "The Lion King (1994)"
Minor change and while I'll be Team SFX till I die, nothing of substance is changed.

- The addition of "If I Never Knew You" and its reprise in "Pocahontas (1995)"
The only way to watch the movie. The original should always be the first option, but it's a crime this version hasn't been seen since the DVD era.

By the way there's that dryer in Lilo and Stitch that was changed to a Pizza box, and Toy Story 2 has that Stincky Pete blooper removed.
The dryer change is just so pointless to me. It's a small change that doesn't impact anything, so I'm good. I don't even know if my Blu-ray includes the change.
Stinky Pete's blooper is no loss. It was an off-colour joke then and worse now. Will not miss it. (That said, it should be preserved somewhere, some way.)

I feel like Disney needs to realize that in order for a movie to have a plot, there has to be an antagonist
Yes, the Disney villains have lost their bite. And their flair. And their personalities. And I've lost interest. People say Gothel and Facilier are the best modern villains, and they might be. They still don't hold a candle to Scar, Ursula, Shere Kahn, Cruella, Lady Tremaine, or even Gaston.

The Broadway show has way better songs for adult Simba
Honestly, Endless Night would have been my choice. It comes at a moment where a song would make sense, it's highly emotional and focuses on Simba instead of subpar animal puns. Plus, Morning Report goes against the very deliberate choice of following up Circle of Life with I Just Can't Wait To Be King. Having the realistic animals of the former sing would look really weird, so they went with a song that had a distinct visual style. Morning Report nudges itself in between them and distorts the flow.
By the way, if anyone hasn't seen it yet, someone animated The Madness Of King Scar. I'd be very okay with it's inclusion as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kGEz1zDGgY

One thing to keep in mind is that the term "tar baby" was not considered a racial slur when SOTS appeared. I don't know when the negative connotation for that term came about, but the movie used that because it's part of the actual African folklore. It's a bit like how the swastika was a Hindu symbol for peace until the Nazis subverted it for their own use.
Very good to know, thank you for pointing this out. I'll have to delve into this more.

Yes, of course you can call me what you want!
It's funny how we've never interacted much, but whenever I see your username my brain corrects it to your actual name. I've been reading a long time... Not meant in a creepy way ;)

I know when the Aladdin Platinum came out, a lot of people were surprised that Proud of Your Boy wasn't added into the movie
I remember rumours about that when the Platinums were releasing. It made sense at the time, and I would have liked the continued trend. There was speculation about Triton having a song in the Little Mermaid Platinum Edition, Sunshine Only Shines On Land.

And I actually think some of the other 90s movies (Aladdin, Hunchback, etc.) would benefit from an extra song or two.
One of my three wishes would be an extended edition of Disney's Hunchback. Music lifted from the (German version of) the musical should include The Balancing Rope (I don't recall if that's the name. The German title is Tanz Auf Dem Zeil), Made Of Stone, Someday and Finale Ultimo. A Guy Like You can be cut.

I heard some people say the deleted scene of Glut the shark chasing Flounder and some hijinks from it getting Ariel to the wedding ship would be in the Special Edition of The Little Mermaid. Honestly, I feel "Human Again" is the only good option to put a song back into a film, because it was planned to be in it so close to production and it's the one that makes the most sense if there should be an added scene, plus it's an original song made for the original film, not from a Broadway show.

They actually sent replacement discs for The Little Mermaid "Part of Your World" shot swap. I got mine.

Did they really take out the skull eyes from Gaston's fall? What kid would notice?!

That "Madness of King Scar" animation is amazingly well-done! It looks exactly like the film in almost every shot!

I do like the Hunchback "Someday" and "Made of Stone" additions and "A Guy Like You" cut ideas, but only because everyone else wants "A Guy Like You" cut.

SirNandor wrote:

It's funny how we've never interacted much, but whenever I see your username my brain corrects it to your actual name. I've been reading a long time... Not meant in a creepy way

:p  I'm not creeped out. :p  It's funny, because back in the day, I knew a lot of members' names, but when I wasn't very active around 2011-2014, I suppose, going through divorce and going to grad school, and then just life happens, so in that time I definitely forgot most people's actual names, so it's kind of flattering that people remember mine, I suppose!

Disney Dusty wrote:

Honestly, I feel "Human Again" is the only good option to put a song back into a film, because it was planned to be in it so close to production and it's the one that makes the most sense if there should be an added scene, plus it's an original song made for the original film, not from a Broadway show.

I, too, think that "Human Again" is a good fit. I definitely understand the complaints, but I really enjoy it.  How do you feel about "Proud of Your Boy," though?  That was also planned to be in the original film, until it was cut...

Disney Dusty wrote:

but only because everyone else wants "A Guy Like You" cut.

Shhh, I don't.         I understand why people don't like the gargoyles, but I enjoy them and that song.  To each their own...!

Dude, that "Madness of King Scar" animation was SO GOOD. I'm so impressed.

SirNandor wrote:

Alright, time to tackle some more. Sorry for now directly quoting, but I'm too lazy.

- The host in "Fantasia (1940)"
If I recall correctly, the original audio was lost. I don't see a better solution here, but may have to brush up on my knowledge.

- Clip mix-up from the end of "Part of Your World" from "The Little Mermaid (1989)" (as shown in the Diamond Edition)
Gah! Another one they never bothered to fix here. I much prefer this restoration to the Platinum one, but this irks me every time. I think about it from the start of the film to the moment it happens. Same with the missing cloud in the Lion King, it occupies my mind far too much.

- Skulls in Gaston's eyes from "Beauty and the Beast (1991)"
This wasn't in the theatrical edition? Or were they taken out?

I feel like Disney needs to realize that in order for a movie to have a plot, there has to be an antagonist
Yes, the Disney villains have lost their bite. And their flair. And their personalities. And I've lost interest. People say Gothel and Facilier are the best modern villains, and they might be. They still don't hold a candle to Scar, Ursula, Shere Kahn, Cruella, Lady Tremaine, or even Gaston.

The Broadway show has way better songs for adult Simba
Honestly, Endless Night would have been my choice. It comes at a moment where a song would make sense, it's highly emotional and focuses on Simba instead of subpar animal puns. Plus, Morning Report goes against the very deliberate choice of following up Circle of Life with I Just Can't Wait To Be King. Having the realistic animals of the former sing would look really weird, so they went with a song that had a distinct visual style. Morning Report nudges itself in between them and distorts the flow.
By the way, if anyone hasn't seen it yet, someone animated The Madness Of King Scar. I'd be very okay with it's inclusion as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kGEz1zDGgY

I know when the Aladdin Platinum came out, a lot of people were surprised that Proud of Your Boy wasn't added into the movie
I remember rumours about that when the Platinums were releasing. It made sense at the time, and I would have liked the continued trend. There was speculation about Triton having a song in the Little Mermaid Platinum Edition, Sunshine Only Shines On Land.

And I actually think some of the other 90s movies (Aladdin, Hunchback, etc.) would benefit from an extra song or two.
One of my three wishes would be an extended edition of Disney's Hunchback. Music lifted from the (German version of) the musical should include The Balancing Rope (I don't recall if that's the name. The German title is Tanz Auf Dem Zeil), Made Of Stone, Someday and Finale Ultimo. A Guy Like You can be cut.

For Fantasia, not all the original audio was lost. Just portions from the extended descriptions of each segment (since those descriptions were cut to trim the overall picture). To restore the full running time for the picture, Disney needed to record new dialogue for those missing bits and then for consistency had to redub the whole thing. Personally I always felt the descriptions of each segment were unnecessary because they're just describing what we're about to see anyway. I would like an alternate cut without those long descriptions so we can have the original audio.

Like Disney Dusty, I also have the replacement disc for TLM. That was quite upsetting for me as well since TLM is my favorite movie and POYW is such an iconic song. I wish TLK Diamond Edition had also gotten a replacement disc for the missing cloud but they didn't fix that until the Signature Edition.

I think the skulls in Gaston's eyes were removed.

I don't think we've really had a good Disney villain in ages and even Facilier and Gothel were lackluster, they only come across as halfway decent now because everyone since them was even worse. I do like King Candy though and I think he worked as a Disney villain. Disney seems too afraid now of offending anyone to create a real antagonist, which is also why their live-action versions of Maleficent, Gaston, and now probably Cruella have been so neutered.

I didn't realize they specifically wanted I Just Can't Wait to Be King to be the very next song after Circle of Life. That makes the choice to insert a new song in between those two sequences even more bizarre. I've seen the animated Madness of King Scar and I like it a lot, although the actual sequence runs longer than what was animated in the video. I know it was really expensive to make but I'd like to see that maker make more stuff like that since Disney doesn't anymore.

I remember hearing that about TLM Platinum Edition. However, I've also heard that creating new sequences and seamlessly inserting them into the movies was only possible for Disney animated movies created with CAPS. The Little Mermaid was the lost movie to not be fully created from CAPS so if that is true, Disney wouldn't have been able to add anything new to it. While I like Triton, I don't think I would need a song for him anyway. I would have liked Eric to sing something or Ariel to have another song, perhaps when she's human and we hear her inner voice.

I haven't seen the German version of Hunchback so I'm not familiar with The Balancing Rope. However, I love all the songs you listed after that. Out of those three, only Someday is essential for me, and I would consider In a Place of Miracles to be equally essential. But I love Made of Stone and wouldn't mind seeing that since I know it's a favorite. I also enjoy Top of the World but I wouldn't call that necessary either. A Guy Like You should definitely be cut lol.